Journal of Other Forum Analysis

[Eric Cartman]

and again - shockingly - like every year - trans people that aren't brazillian hookers are among the safest demographics for all kinds of fucking crime.

[Potato]

Often people find it hard to connect the bans to this, viewing them as individual fragments rather than a whole. So, it would mean working without being able to use the bathroom. It would mean having no support group if you were violently assaulted, at a time where you are over four times more likely than cis people to experience violent victimization. Including rape, sexual assault, and aggravated or simple assault. It would mean you couldn't go shopping for a wedding dress as you can't access the changing room. You couldn't have a child and go to a mother and child class. You couldn't find friends through a women's book club. You couldn't even survive a car accident and be left unconscious without cis fears trying to hide you away on a different ward.

Using these to say you’re facing a genocide, holy fuck is that sick.

It's also wrong to say that you can't use the bathroom anymore, you just have to use the one you think is the wrong one. Which yes, can feel shitty, but women feeling like a man is in their space also feels shitty. I don't have an easy solution for you there but I do know that's not genocide.

Also women book clubs are fucking private no government ban will affect that either way. If they don't invite you to their Harry Potter reading session they simply don't like you

Is the reason you're over four times more likely to experience violent victimisation because you're more likely to engage in risky behaviours such as prostitution?

[kaleidoscopium]

And less education, less economic stability, less mental stability, all of the negative aspects of life that increase your chances of violent interaction.

[Uncle]

Using these to say you’re facing a genocide, holy fuck is that sick.

It's also wrong to say that you can't use the bathroom anymore, you just have to use the one you think is the wrong one. Which yes, can feel shitty, but women feeling like a man is in their space also feels shitty. I don't have an easy solution for you there but I do know that's not genocide.

Also women book clubs are fucking private no government ban will affect that either way. If they don't invite you to their Harry Potter reading session they simply don't like you

Is the reason you're over four times more likely to experience violent victimisation because you're more likely to engage in risky behaviours such as prostitution?

is the fact that it's risky another aspect of trans genocide?

👏 SEX 👏 WORK 👏 IS 👏 REAL 👏 WORK 👏 AND 👏 IT'S 👏 ONLY 👏 "DANGEROUS" 👏 BECAUSE 👏 CONSERVATIVES 👏 WANT 👏 TO 👏 KILL 👏 US 👏

[Propagandhim]

No idea what they are citing, but for the 2022 hate crime in the US statistics:
https://www.justice.gov/crs/highlights/2022-hate-crime-statistics

Increase in Hate Crimes: The data reveals that hate crime incidents increased by 794 in 2022. There were 11,634 cases, compared to 10,840 in 2021.

LGBTQI+ Targeted Crimes: Incidents targeting gay men reached 1,075, while anti-lesbian incidents numbered 622. Both categories recorded their highest totals in the past five years and increased by more than 10% since 2021. A significant increase of nearly 40% was observed in reported anti-transgender incidents (totaling 338) compared to 2021.

So an increase, but definitely not 4x higher, not even the highest in their own subsection.

Interesting.
Let's look at the UK where the news article was written and was about, and where Kyuntuji lives.
https://www.theguardian.com/society/2023/oct/05/record-rise-hate-crimes-transgender-people-reported-england-and-wales



Trans activist playing 3 card monty with facts and figures online

From that article:

However religiously motivated hate crimes rose last year by 9% – with a record 9,387 documented in the year to March. Two in five religious hate crimes were against people perceived to be Muslim, while one in six were against people perceived to be Jewish.

The flashier Muslim genocide and Jewish genocide, represented by higher genocide bars on that chart, are kinda stealing our steeze y'all.

[Taco Bell Tower]

Palworld hit 19 mil users
https://www.resetera.com/threads/palworld-has-sold-over-12-million-copies-on-steam-7-million-players-on-xbox-biggest-3rd-party-game-pass-launch-in-history.807207/page-105?post=118423632#post-118423632

Good thing that we are getting stuff that can become as big as this

Bad that it comes from a cripto company that publicly has embraced that they are just copying ideas to see what sticks, it's on us if we start seeing more things like this

[Nintex]

It's been morbid to think about how we're just not going to get that much support because our genocide isn't "flashy", it's by banning all the ways we can exist in society. They don't need to make a big showing of rounding us up and killing us when laws will slowly bleed us dry.

Certainly a choice to call actual genocide “flashy”

Well every genocide needs a large number of victims and a super villain with a strong brand.

- The jews had Hitler and the Nazis while their total kills weren't that high compared to say Stalin, they had this fantastic A+ branding and innovative killing methods. 
- The Ukrainians had Stalin, another big brand combined with a very large number of kills and the sheer barbarity of starvation and freezing.
- The Chinese had Mao not as big a brand as Hitler or Stalin but still remarkable thanks to the sheer number of deaths.
- The Cambodians had Pol Pot, brand side B- but he did kill so many it sort of evens out
- The Gazans have Genocide Joe, who has really upped his game as of late

I mean, J.K. Rowling, Donald Trump, Vladimir Putin and Elon Musk ain't exactly the super villains they need for their story arc. 

J.K. Rowling has a strong brand but she hasn't killed anybody.
Elon Musk is a bit of a weirdo and again not doing any mass murders
Donald Trump has the brand going for him but he dislikes war and his kill count is in the single digits if you count those two Muslim scholars he offed with drones besides he has a few trans friends
Putin hides behind laws, regulations and secret services and slowly breeds them dry, he is not exactly openly shooting hypersonic missiles at trans people

[Hap Shaughnessy]

https://www.resetera.com/threads/kurzgesagt-did-the-future-already-happen.810903/page-2?post=118371417#post-118371417

User banned (1 week): unsubstantiated thread derail

I like their choice of topics, but the general tone of delivery sometimes comes across as a bit patronising. If you're into physics, maybe check out Sabine Hossenfelder or PBS Space Time.

Cross Sabine off your list, she's a transphobe.

What's with this apocalyptic, fear mongering, fringe theory Kurzgesagt as of late?

They are "longtermists" who run in the same circles as Elon Musk, Elizier Yudkowsky, and other tech bros who think humanity needs to colonize space in order to survive, all while assuming we will come up with technocratic solutions to the much more imminent threats to the species like climate change. The far future apocalypse stuff is part of the deal because they like to fantasize about ways to keep their tech bro overlords' minds alive forever and ever.

[Hap Shaughnessy]

https://www.resetera.com/threads/its-2024-and-yes-its-still-a-trans-genocide-an-faq-and-what-you-can-do-about-it-today-and-beyond.811257/

After almost a day 1,170 views and 25 replies

I would imagine most people have sadly added it to ignore. I know I will.

The Ree trans mafia has done untold damage to their own best interests by being absolute bullying idiots

I wonder how many of the views are from the Bire. 

[HaughtyFrank]

https://www.resetera.com/threads/kurzgesagt-did-the-future-already-happen.810903/page-2?post=118371417#post-118371417

User banned (1 week): unsubstantiated thread derail

I like their choice of topics, but the general tone of delivery sometimes comes across as a bit patronising. If you're into physics, maybe check out Sabine Hossenfelder or PBS Space Time.

Cross Sabine off your list, she's a transphobe.

What's with this apocalyptic, fear mongering, fringe theory Kurzgesagt as of late?

They are "longtermists" who run in the same circles as Elon Musk, Elizier Yudkowsky, and other tech bros who think humanity needs to colonize space in order to survive, all while assuming we will come up with technocratic solutions to the much more imminent threats to the species like climate change. The far future apocalypse stuff is part of the deal because they like to fantasize about ways to keep their tech bro overlords' minds alive forever and ever.

Out of curiosity I checked the article and I love that by RE's definition the author herself is a TERF

TERF stands for “trans-exclusionary radical feminist,” and it’s a craze that has really taken over in England and elsewhere (though in America our transphobes tend to not pretend to be feminists – they hate all of us, cis women and trans people alike), and generally you can recognize a TERF because they are cis people who for some reason cannot stop thinking, talking, worrying about, and hating trans people. I’m not talking about people who have measured disagreements about things like “should we have clubs specifically for cis women” or “do trans women who went through puberty before transitioning have an unfair advantage against cis women in professional sports?” No, I’m talking about people who believe that any gender affirming care, like using a child’s preferred pronouns, is child abuse, or that even adults should not be able to transition safely. That’s TERFs

[Uncle]

https://www.resetera.com/threads/its-2024-and-yes-its-still-a-trans-genocide-an-faq-and-what-you-can-do-about-it-today-and-beyond.811257/

After almost a day 1,170 views and 25 replies

I would imagine most people have sadly added it to ignore. I know I will.

The Ree trans mafia has done untold damage to their own best interests by being absolute bullying idiots

I wonder how many of the views are from the Bire. 

perhaps from afar we are looking up at that same star-filled thread as the others

[Taco Bell Tower]

Ree users always falling for fake accounts
https://www.resetera.com/threads/palworld-has-sold-over-12-million-copies-on-steam-7-million-players-on-xbox-biggest-3rd-party-game-pass-launch-in-history.807207/page-106?post=118424643#post-118424643
L.O.R.D

LMAO WHAT???
NFTs?
WTF NOO

105-Shake

NFT's?! Really lol

Game is really fun though.

Dopeyfish

i dont know if that account is fake or not, i was looking into it

palworld_jp is the main account and the nft posting one is palworlds_jp

so at the moment im not sure, money is on fake but it's also golden checked

Spinluck

This won't be the last time someone falls for that.

Elon really did ruin Twitter.

[Boredfrom]

If there's one thing I've learned over the years, it's to underestimate Nintendo at your peril (and Pocketpair's). They are likely actively digging through the game right now, and there's probably a lot to go through. It's not going to happen overnight.

If they do bring out a case after waiting a while (not even sure how long a while would be) it would be because they'd have pulled up a literal mountain of evidence in which they compare every Pokemon model they have to every Pal and bring receipts. And that would be incredibly interesting to watch.

I imagine that Nintendo/TPC would give themselves a timeline based on when the game leaves EA since they might actively add more Pals with plagiarized designs, but I'm just guessing of course. They might never actually file a case, but I actually think that would be pretty surprising considering how protective they can be of their IPs.

I also learned to not overestimate Nintendo or think they know better than the competition.

In any case, at this point it seems pretty difficult to take the game down, even with a lawsuit.

[Nintex]

The thing with Nintendo and court cases is that they usually pick on companies and entities that can't afford to lawyer up as well as they do.
Especially when the justice system or taxation authority have already seized their illegal assets or bootleg products.

PocketPair can already afford the best lawyer money can buy and its unlikely they didn't pay their taxes.

The second Nintendo legal strategy is to wait until money is made so they can demand a large settlement or damages.
That works especially well when margins are small and most of that 'profit' on paper has already been eaten up by other expenses.
For example you might sell bootleg Switch games for $1, with some magic math Nintendo turns that into $100 in damages (i.e. what they would've made if you didn't sell the game illegally + the damages for ruining their reputation).

If Nintendo starts a case against PocketPair they will likely come up with an astronomical number in damages.
Hoping that the legal team on the other side will try for a settlement as they likely wouldn't get paid otherwise.

[kaleidoscopium]

https://www.resetera.com/threads/what-is-going-on-with-twitter-x-with-these-weird-sexual-ads-anyone-else-getting-them.811416/

Wait until they learn that Twitter ads are specialized to the user  

[Puffy Fucking Baby]

i usually get ads for drop shipped garbage 

[kaleidoscopium]

i usually get ads for drop shipped garbage 

I see dropship tech, apple stuff, movies, games etc. General nerd shit, never seen a sex ad

[kaleidoscopium]

I loved the attention to deatail and the the actual feeling of being in another world when i went to the Harry Potter zones. JK Rowling aside that was one of my favorite experiences ever on a vacation. And to have that kind of care given to other IPs and especially the Universal Monsters, absolutely has me excited for Epic Universe. Weirdly enough, my faorite parts of the Harry Potter zone was the themeing in the shops and eateries. I cant wait to see what they cooked up for my monsters.

https://www.resetera.com/threads/introducing-universal-epic-universe.810891/page-4?post=118429707#post-118429707

[davepoobond]

https://www.resetera.com/threads/what-is-going-on-with-twitter-x-with-these-weird-sexual-ads-anyone-else-getting-them.811416/

Wait until they learn that Twitter ads are specialized to the user  

i get nothing but that stuff too. its a small descent into that black hole -- you maybe see one thing that is somewhat sexualized, so it presents you something an inch more in that direction, and it continues until you're basically getting full on porn shown to you

not really much else to use twitter for nowadays for me, i guess.


Facebook is similar, except i get nothing but Husky dog videos

[BIONIC]

Constructive dump:

Spoiler:  (click to show)(click to hide)

I don’t think anyone would blame you for going scorched earth on those fools. What a completely unhinged conspiracy theory.

That's something that I as a staffer would like to believe, but we are constantly blindsided by what blows up and what doesn't.

We can process tens of reports a day, hundreds of reports a week, thousands a month, warn after temp ban after perm, and nothing happens. No one has a problem with how we work. Even within these quiet periods, staff and members can come back with some sense of level-headedness and be like, "Hey, this specific ban was an accident/a misunderstanding/too harsh" and it gets reversed. It's like two button presses. It's no skin off of anyone's nose to make a mistake, recognize a mistake, and undo it. We're not robots. Sometimes bans are gonna happen that you don't like or you find confusing, but most times they don't result in hundreds of people turning up to 11.

We warn or ban the wrong person on the wrong day in the wrong topic using the same process we did for the thousands of reports we've done for the past several months where no one complained, and all of a sudden we're here in this situation, where Discord brigades are happening, forum brigades are happening, Twitter is blowing up, I and other staffers are getting Discord pings demanding explanations when we're off trying to live our lives, we're seeing reactionary conspiracy theories form in real time on the forum completely unchecked, members who see what's going on and try to push back get dogpiled, all of this is happening while we're being called out as not having "learned a lesson," when this isn't even the first time we've been here and subsequently not the first time we've actually moved in response to member demand.

Harsher application of punishment in the wake of bigotry related posts (you used to get like a few days, if that, for saying blatantly racist, sexist, or transphobic shit back in 2017)? The appeal and ticket system, which you didn't even have before, so if you get permed you were just gone for good? The application and use of threadbans to remove problem members without actually implementing hard account bans? The rule update thread to let people know when things have changed? You think we discussed, coded, tested, and implemented these processes for fun? Of course not. We worked on these things because of you all wanted them. Like, honestly, what lesson is there for us to learn here other than "Don't ban my friends?" or "You should be dragged and made a mockery over for days for making an unpopular decision?" or "The lesson mods need to learn is to be absolutely perfect in their decision-making?"

I've been apologizing about accidentally setting people off since I was an Ace Moderator, sometimes over decisions I hadn't even been involved in. I've had hours long meetings with my team over the course of these years trying to find a way where we can just get to a fucking place, as adults, where something like this doesn't turn into an embarrassing online revolt against people who you can easily target versus the real folks out there actually doing damage in this godforsaken world. Like goddamn, you would've thought that we fired 1900 people.

I'm personally over it. The brigading, the Discord drama. I'm fucking done with it. Members here either want to act like adults, or they don't.

There are two parts to this that I want to touch on and I'll start with the extreme end of it.

The users that made up conspiracy theories about mods, attacked mods, or play into the whole 'they don't care about us' narrative are absolutely out of line and were/are acting like children. I agree with you that you can't dictate what will 'blow up' vs what doesn't in terms of eyes and engagement (good or bad) and trying to plan for that would be a waste of energy.

But taking this entire experience (which I'm going to call started with Windrunner's post) and reducing it to everyone acting like children and 'nothing valuable can be learned here' means we will be here again in a few months discussing another 'incident' or what comes about. This system you mention that works for a while with no issue until something comes up and it explodes - that's where something is happening and where it can be broken down to figure out maybe how to avoid it.

It sounds like the system does work just fine until there's a moment of confusion with users not understanding the reasons or rational behind a ban. When you have the unknown and nothing there to fill it, people will fill it up with whatever it is that makes sense to them. Unfortunately for many of the loudest that comes across as wild conspiracy theories and utter nonsense, as well as vitriol and anger. It sounds it's working just fine, but it is not being communicated effectively enough to squash any confusion that arises in moments like these. I don't know 100% if explaining a ban further would clear up these problems and squash them before they start, but it feels like every time something like this happens there just needs to be more communication when there isn't.

Windrunner's ban and the subsequent chaos and conspiracy theories that enveloped that thread are worth looking at and breaking down into what can be figured out or fixed or discussed. I'm not saying to appease the wild theories - I'm saying get rid of the gaps of knowledge that users have and they won't be able to fill it with antagonism.

It started with "why was this ban so harsh?" and spiraled from there, especially as many seemed to agree with Wind. Given that it was an emotionally charged thread and topic it gave something for people to latch on to and direct their anger at. Does this excuse it? No. But that's how this situation should be broken down if we all want this to stop happening. I hate it, you hate it, we all hate watching this shit go down time and again. But this can't just be dismissed at large as people being children if we want things to change.

The thing is, we are never going to reach a point where we staff and members will always, indisputably, agree on every single action we do, from now until the end of Era's lifespan. It's literally impossible.

Sometimes, we do legitimately misread someone's intent and ban harshly. These are almost always reversed. Sometimes we miss the context of why someone flew off the handle. Sometimes, we are escalating off a pattern of behavior that members might not be aware of (see the previous small brigade where members were gunning to get a member unpermed, unaware that they were actually permed before and yet we let them back in on appeal. We literally gave them extra leniency and we were still called assholes.)

Sometimes the opposite occurs where folks will brigade to get posters banned just because those posters piss them off, but we look at the posts themselves and there's not much that we can ding them on as going by the rules. They're not being bigoted. They're not being rude. They just disagree with the consensus. That can't be bannable.

The difference in working knowledge and context between the moderator and user experience inherently means these two groups look at bans from two different viewpoints. Most times, we are able to align with the forum at large and thus nothing happens. Sometimes a misalignment happens. That's inevitable. The few active staff we have remaining are never going to have a perfect batting accuracy with tens of thousands of people, on and off the forums, watching us all the time.

However, when that misalignment happens, and trust me this is going to happen in the future, I insist our jobs should not be made infinitely harder. We shouldn't have threads completely taken over and derailed. We shouldn't be shouted at on our personal Discords. We shouldn't have people trying to figure out who did it and making up the most ridiculous motives as for why. People hound us down, demanding an explanation that frankly they would literally never get on any other social media platform (act out like this on Twitter, or Facebook, or Reddit, or TikTok, or anywhere else, and see how far you get), like we actually are fucking beat cops killing folks in the street.

It's hurt and vulnerable people (along with a few people who are genuinely assholes and have no real stake in the drama) turning their frustrations on the next most convenient target- staff members on a damn forum because, hey, any hierarchy is as good as any to instigate revolt, I guess- for when something goes wrong, instead of remembering that we're also hurt and vulnerable people, and subsequently we are not out to get folks. Half the time shit is going on I'm away at my job. Like what the fuck am I supposed to do?

All I really ask for is some grace, for 25-30+ year old adults, to just act with a bit more maturity when they disagree with a ban. That's it. I'm not asking for blind agreement with our decisions, because we are long past the point where staff have understood- despite popular belief- that we are indeed fallible, and sometimes we fuck up, and when that happens we apologize (seriously, where the hell is this new rumor coming from that we don't ever apologize or reverse bans?!) I'm asking folks to just literally fucking stop.

That's it. Just stop it. Enough.

Without accessible ban histories (which for the record I am not advocating for), there's no practical difference between a user who has been "unbanned" and a user who's never been banned from an outside looking in perspective.

There's no real way for users to perceive that a user was banned and subsequently unbanned/had it reversed, unless the observer happened to be in the thread where the ban post was at the exact time it happened, noticed the ban length (if one was even given), and also put 2 + 2 together when seeing the user unbanned before that length of time was reached. Most people also don't directly comment right after being unbanned or having their ban expired "oh hey I just got back from my ban, way earlier than expected!"

So the only examples people "perceive" are the ones that aren't reversed. Because we can clearly see if a user is "still" banned. It's the survivorship bias problem. The only examples you can actually see paint an inaccurate picture, because people never "see" the examples that disprove the notion because they're effectively invisible to us.

That makes sense, and it goes back to what I and [USER=2394]Sawneeks[/USER] said about there being gaps in knowledge and context. Ironically though, even if we opened up ban histories to the public, reversals wouldn't actually show up because a reversal deletes the warning/ban from the account. You would need to actually have access to the report and ticket system to have a proper paper trail....and yeah, we're not going to do that. Imagine the chaos that would occur if people could see who is being reported, the people doing the reporting, and some of the nasty language that can fly by in reports. Doubly so with tickets considering we get a decent amount of weird brigaders and legit stalkers in there who do not need the extra attention.

But really, my bigger question is, if we're serious about trying to temper emotions, is really like...why do a lot of y'all just assume the absolute worst of us? Why do you need to fill in the gaps of knowledge with animosity in the first place?

And I agree wholeheartedly that people need to gain some awareness and stop before launching into the deep end at the drop of a hat. It's a pervasive problem in a lot of online spaces and here especially.

But like you said, often both sides of this are hurt or are hurting. There are people behind all of this and we all have our range of emotions. But unfortunately with emotions....it's not something that can be moderated or controlled to a T. I'd love it if we could just change a rule and people became more reasonable but it's something that may just not exist.

So it's a problem that may not have a defined solution but it might have some things that can be put in place to help lower the chance of people flying off the handle.

I can give an example here of that rumor you mentioned. It's known on this forum that you should not talk about bans unless you also want to get banned as it's often considered back seat modding or meta commentary. That leads to a lot of silence over the discussion of bans, apologies, or even undoing bans as that's a tight rope to walk. I was fairly certain that it would be impossible for the site to exist for this long without a ban being undone or changed. But I can't say I've ever seen an example of that happening and that's partially because there's an air that you don't talk about it. So if there was an instance of this happening and it got changed later, I'm not going through that thread. Looking to see if it was changed or what have you. Normally that would get around by people just talking about it elsewhere but like I just said you're not supposed to talk about it. It again leads back to a lack of communication on topics.

I'm sure you and the other mods know when an apology has been given or when something has been undone, but for the vast majority of us users we have no idea any of that ever happened.

And this relates to the misalignment between mods and users. It can happen! Someone could be walking into a situation or not know the history of a user or know that they got permaban and then undone like you mentioned. Then explain it! Yes, people should not have jumped off the handle right at the get-go but that shouldn't stop an explanation from coming. But I will double back to the example of windrunner and, as far as I'm aware, there was no communication as to why her ban was so harsh those first 48 hours or so when things really snowballed out of control. Clearly whatever system you guys used pointed you to having to ban her for the extent that you did. And like we've discussed, that system seems to work fine. So that means the info you have is the info that users are lacking and therefore that's where the confusion comes from. I'm not saying create an entire annotated list of everything this person has ever done wrong, but even a little something, explaining that. "Hey, they've done this this amount of times or they were permabanned before so we're permaing them again or whatever.". Usually the banner explains that well enough, but there are times where some more context could help de-escalate a situation by clearing up confusion.

Like yes, there is going to be an inherent difference between mods and users. There's always going to be a difference for that because it is a position of power over those who do not. But knowledge is one of the best ways to bridge that gap

Posted whole I typed!

I think that's a question that just carries into online spaces as a whole. It really does feel like people are more antagonistic and just want to fight the second they can. Why? I don't have that answer. I wish I did. It feels like a lot of people are just waiting to learn someone is a bad person. Maybe it's a fallout of people learning that there are those online who can hide their racism, sexism, homophobia, etc well and only get caught on a slip? So they assume most people hide something? I'm not sure, I'm mostly thinking aloud.

I guess to relate it to Era, I could point to previous posts I've made in this thread over the years of similar problems that have not been fixed and watching the cycle repeat. I'd like to hope I've never been an asshole about it to anyone since I understand that like. Yeah, you're people too lol. You wouldn't be doing what you do unless you want Era to thrive. Why people go paranoia first? I don't know. But I would be lying if I said I don't get frustrated at some decisions I see. And when there isn't a explanation or a reason tagged to a move then yeah I fill in the gaps sometimes. I temper that knowing that we're all just people here and you guys are doing the best that you can. But it's also natural for people to try and find logic behind something even if they don't know the whole picture.

There are a couple of things here I want to touch on but I want to go big picture first. From our conversation we've had a bit of back and forth and it seems to me that there's an underlying view from the moderation side of 'us vs them' when it comes to decisions making but also when it comes to viewing the community as a whole. Saying things like 'it's a privelage we even speak to you' or 'look at all this work we do for you!' isn't doing the job you might think it is since people are upset and it comes across a bit demeaning. Painting the entire group of Users under one brush will do that but especially so when that brush is very negative and assuming the worst reactions from people. Viewing all of us as some sort of potential enemy or outbrust waiting to happen is going to paint all decisions made in that light and just deeper entrench that idea when things do happen.

But if that sounds similar...that's because it is. Era was not always like this but over the yeards there's been an air of 'us vs them' from the User perspective as well when it comes to staff. It seems like both sides of this forum see each other as a potential threat/problem when it really, really does not have to be that way. I do think this cycle is feeding off of eachother and it's why things seem to get worse and worse as time goes on. Eventually, someone or something will need to work to break or change that cycle.

Which is why I keep posting in here and why we keep talking about this stuff. No there is no easy answer but I also think taking nothing from this is just going to get us in the same spot again. Whatever the solution DOES end up being, it's going to take a ton of work. Breaking a cycle of distrust isn't easy by any means, let alone expanding that by thousands of people on a forum, but if moderation doesn't take those first steps....who does?
--
There are other things to say re; bans, ABK, etc. but I won't delve too much into them. I will say that Windrunner's ban and the ABK thread may have gone a different route if things were explained - or it may not have, we will never know. But it's worth it to try because, hey, maybe it would have worked and it's better than just letting it all snowball into a bigger problem. Warn or ban the people that still took it way too far but I would argue most folks are more reasonable than not.

I would go back to saying that your internal system works and reversing a ban just on sheer backlash isn't what I am suggesting unless it's agreed upon that an error happened somewhere. But be willing to, yknow, explain it a bit or defend it. LIke I just said above, most people are reasonable and would at the very least understand.

And on a bit more of a personal note I want to say that if this position of being a mod/staff/admin/etc. is that stressful and impacting you so much....maybe walk away. If a friend told me what you or B-Dubs went through regarding any of this I would tell them to leave that place and find something a lot healthier for them. If doing the work isn't fun, interesting, or engaging anymore without unhealthy stress, anger, etc then it might be time to let it go.

Sure, I will admit that there's an "us vs. them" mentality when it comes to staff and users, but I think it's a bit more nuanced than that. I, personally, don't think the majority of users are really a problem. 99% of my time spent on this forum is neutral to pleasant. In general, I would wager that most active members right now don't even really know what's going on, and that this is all a niche problem on a niche space on the larger Internet as a whole. It takes half a step to get to a bubble where ResetEra doesn't even exist in that bubble's mindshare.

But I will also admit that after years of being deliberately taken in bad faith by both consistent sects of users, and understanding that a lot of animosity is fomented on Discords where I have no control before being brought here on the forum and resulting in brigades, that I am, as a person, under no obligation to constantly assume good faith on everyone. I have a right to be suspicious that any given member I'm talking to on matters of policy might be taking my posts off forum to shit on me and twist my words (hell, I know for a fact they're taking my normal participation posts off to places like KF and the Bore to shit on me lol). I have a right to be suspicious that any questions I'm being prodded with are being asked with an ulterior motive, and that they're trying to get answers out of me. I have a right to notice when certain folks who show up time and time again in drama spells suddenly come at me in a topic wherein I've literally never had any actual direct contact with them, but they seem to have a whole lot of deep-seated resentment for me.

Trust is broken. But that goes both ways. You can't have your staff constantly harassed, mocked, and attacked on and off the forums by large swathes of members for extended periods of time, and then go "Gee, I don't know why you think we're a potential outburst waiting to happen; we're not gonna bite." The harsh truth is that y'all are, because outbursts happen without any real foresight on our end, we get shit on as being entirely the problem, and nothing is learned. Respect is further eroded. So you, individually, might be fine, and again we've not had any beef with each other. But at the same time I don't know you as a person and we certainly don't interact enough to be what I would consider a true online friends. Why should I trust you, or any other specific member who I've not had extended offline interaction with, as if you are a close friend?


Once again, I will reiterate that moderation have taken steps across the years to implement feedback channels, moderation procedures, and technological updates to the forums to A.) try and provide clearer communication to members about bans, B.) be more lenient on people and provide ways of clemency, and C.) Try to prevent topics from spiralling into nonsense where fires have a greater potential to occur.

Acting like we've done nothing is part of the frustration I and other staffers have. Again, I've been in the trenches since like 2018 or so constantly apologizing to people, regardless of whether or not I was the one who pulled the trigger on a decision, constantly ensuring people that we aren't bigots, constantly having discussions and roundtables with people, and constantly working with staff in the wee hours of the morning or actually on the clock at my real job(s) to get these agenda items off the ground. Seems like no one cares when we're right here again because we banned a popular-enough member, because people seem to act as if we've done nothing and we've not "learned a lesson." Again, at this point, what lesson is there to learn except "don't ban the people I like?" Because that's not going to happen if the people you like break the rules.

I'm also weary of talking in generalities and platitudes. I'm a materialist; I like concrete ideas and suggestions based upon an observable consensus for any given issue. Saying "Mods need to apologize more" and "Mods need to explain more" doesn't wash with me, because we've done that already, and clearly the problem isn't fixed. So what do you think we specifically need to do to "break the cycle of distrust" that also simultaneously doesn't open the entire moderation backend to the public? Subsequently, what do you think members should do on their end to actually uphold their end of the bargain, if anything?


And replace us with who? Applications have stalled in part because a lot of people we do pick out and want to interview have told us there's absolutely no way they'd do this job because they've seen how the member base can act towards the staff.

[HaughtyFrank]

I've been apologizing about accidentally setting people off since I was an Ace Moderator, sometimes over decisions I hadn't even been involved in. I've had hours long meetings with my team over the course of these years trying to find a way where we can just get to a fucking place, as adults, where something like this doesn't turn into an embarrassing online revolt against people who you can easily target versus the real folks out there actually doing damage in this godforsaken world. Like goddamn, you would've thought that we fired 1900 people.

Oh fuck off.

When you and your buddies perma banned a guy for daring to tweet that you're bad admin you didn't apologize for shit. In fact b-dubs or whoever came up with strange excuses about how it's okay for mods to insult people on discords but that insulting a mod on public twitter is over the line, despite that tweet being read by much fewer people than that discord.

[Boredfrom]

Regardless, anyone with eyes can see that this game is creatively bankrupt. It doing so well really gives warning signs for the industry, not for Game Freak or TPC, the whole industry.

[kaleidoscopium]

https://www.resetera.com/threads/what-is-going-on-with-twitter-x-with-these-weird-sexual-ads-anyone-else-getting-them.811416/

Wait until they learn that Twitter ads are specialized to the user  

i get nothing but that stuff too. its a small descent into that black hole -- you maybe see one thing that is somewhat sexualized, so it presents you something an inch more in that direction, and it continues until you're basically getting full on porn shown to you

not really much else to use twitter for nowadays for me, i guess.


Facebook is similar, except i get nothing but Husky dog videos

Logging my 10 first ads I see:

BetMGM Casino ad
HungryRoot Meal Kits
Goblinz Publishing city building game "Synergy"
FanDuel Sportsbook betting
"Intro" a service for getting Startup advice, specifically from Alexis Ohanion in this ad
Anker Batteries
Revolver advertising a podcast for the Grammys
BetMGM Casino ad again
Ritz Crackers
A game called Eden Genesis with a demo and a kickstarter

I don't think I have the magic twitter account which doesn't see the bad ads but... it's pretty generic stuff on here, same as I see anywhere else basically. I do see much less ads on twitter than anywhere else though had to scroll quite a bit to see even these 10.

[jooseloose]

OP never returned to this thread  https://www.resetera.com/threads/nsfw-i’m-pretty-sure-i’m-about-to-lose-my-virginity-sunday-1-28-what-do-i-need-to-know-nsfw.807966/

Gee, I wonder what could have happened

[HaughtyFrank]

OP never returned to this thread  https://www.resetera.com/threads/nsfw-i’m-pretty-sure-i’m-about-to-lose-my-virginity-sunday-1-28-what-do-i-need-to-know-nsfw.807966/

Gee, I wonder what could have happened

[kaleidoscopium]

OP never returned to this thread  https://www.resetera.com/threads/nsfw-i’m-pretty-sure-i’m-about-to-lose-my-virginity-sunday-1-28-what-do-i-need-to-know-nsfw.807966/

Gee, I wonder what could have happened

thread is GONE for me, wonder which admin lurks this site

[benji]

Often people find it hard to connect the bans to this, viewing them as individual fragments rather than a whole. So, it would mean working without being able to use the bathroom. It would mean having no support group if you were violently assaulted, at a time where you are over four times more likely than cis people to experience violent victimization. Including rape, sexual assault, and aggravated or simple assault. It would mean you couldn't go shopping for a wedding dress as you can't access the changing room. You couldn't have a child and go to a mother and child class. You couldn't find friends through a women's book club. You couldn't even survive a car accident and be left unconscious without cis fears trying to hide you away on a different ward.

[citation needed]

Stage 10 - Denial of individual truths. You betcha.

[Boredfrom]

But I will also admit that after years of being deliberately taken in bad faith by both consistent sects of users, and understanding that a lot of animosity is fomented on Discords where I have no control before being brought here on the forum  and resulting in brigades , that I am, as a person, under no obligation to constantly assume good faith on everyone.

“I can’t control people outside the forum”  

Also, what fucking brigades? Most brigading is centered in political wank, trans issues or culture war stuff.

[benji]

If there's one thing I've learned over the years, it's to underestimate Nintendo at your peril (and Pocketpair's). They are likely actively digging through the game right now, and there's probably a lot to go through. It's not going to happen overnight.

If they do bring out a case after waiting a while (not even sure how long a while would be) it would be because they'd have pulled up a literal mountain of evidence in which they compare every Pokemon model they have to every Pal and bring receipts. And that would be incredibly interesting to watch.

Man, talk about really getting your hopes up.

[benji]

Constructive dump:

We can process tens of reports a day, hundreds of reports a week, thousands a month, warn after temp ban after perm, and nothing happens. No one has a problem with how we work.

all of a sudden we're here in this situation, where Discord brigades are happening, forum brigades are happening, Twitter is blowing up, I and other staffers are getting Discord pings demanding explanations when we're off trying to live our lives, we're seeing reactionary conspiracy theories form in real time on the forum completely unchecked, members who see what's going on and try to push back get dogpiled, all of this is happening while we're being called out as not having "learned a lesson," when this isn't even the first time we've been here and subsequently not the first time we've actually moved in response to member demand.

Harsher application of punishment in the wake of bigotry related posts (you used to get like a few days, if that, for saying blatantly racist, sexist, or transphobic shit back in 2017)? The appeal and ticket system, which you didn't even have before, so if you get permed you were just gone for good? The application and use of threadbans to remove problem members without actually implementing hard account bans? The rule update thread to let people know when things have changed? You think we discussed, coded, tested, and implemented these processes for fun? Of course not. We worked on these things because of you all wanted them. Like, honestly, what lesson is there for us to learn here other than "Don't ban my friends?" or "You should be dragged and made a mockery over for days for making an unpopular decision?" or "The lesson mods need to learn is to be absolutely perfect in their decision-making?"

I've been apologizing about accidentally setting people off since I was an Ace Moderator, sometimes over decisions I hadn't even been involved in. I've had hours long meetings with my team over the course of these years trying to find a way where we can just get to a fucking place, as adults, where something like this doesn't turn into an embarrassing online revolt against people who you can easily target versus the real folks out there actually doing damage in this godforsaken world. Like goddamn, you would've thought that we fired 1900 people.

I'm personally over it. The brigading, the Discord drama. I'm fucking done with it. Members here either want to act like adults, or they don't.

The difference in working knowledge and context between the moderator and user experience inherently means these two groups look at bans from two different viewpoints.

However, when that misalignment happens, and trust me this is going to happen in the future, I insist our jobs should not be made infinitely harder. We shouldn't have threads completely taken over and derailed. We shouldn't be shouted at on our personal Discords. We shouldn't have people trying to figure out who did it and making up the most ridiculous motives as for why. People hound us down, demanding an explanation that frankly they would literally never get on any other social media platform (act out like this on Twitter, or Facebook, or Reddit, or TikTok, or anywhere else, and see how far you get), like we actually are fucking beat cops killing folks in the street.

It's hurt and vulnerable people (along with a few people who are genuinely assholes and have no real stake in the drama) turning their frustrations on the next most convenient target- staff members on a damn forum because, hey, any hierarchy is as good as any to instigate revolt, I guess- for when something goes wrong, instead of remembering that we're also hurt and vulnerable people

sometimes we fuck up, and when that happens we apologize (seriously, where the hell is this new rumor coming from that we don't ever apologize or reverse bans?!) I'm asking folks to just literally fucking stop.

That's it. Just stop it. Enough.

That makes sense, and it goes back to what I and [USER=2394]Sawneeks[/USER]  said about there being gaps in knowledge and context. Ironically though, even if we opened up ban histories to the public, reversals wouldn't actually show up because a reversal deletes the warning/ban from the account. You would need to actually have access to the report and ticket system to have a proper paper trail....and yeah, we're not going to do that. Imagine the chaos that would occur if people could see who is being reported, the people doing the reporting, and some of the nasty language that can fly by in reports. Doubly so with tickets considering we get a decent amount of weird brigaders and legit stalkers in there who do not need the extra attention.

Sure, I will admit that there's an "us vs. them" mentality when it comes to staff and users

But I will also admit that after years of being deliberately taken in bad faith by both consistent sects of users, and understanding that a lot of animosity is fomented on Discords where I have no control before being brought here on the forum and resulting in brigades, that I am, as a person, under no obligation to constantly assume good faith on everyone. I have a right to be suspicious that any given member I'm talking to on matters of policy might be taking my posts off forum to shit on me and twist my words (hell, I know for a fact they're taking my normal participation posts off to places like KF and the Bore to shit on me lol). I have a right to be suspicious that any questions I'm being prodded with are being asked with an ulterior motive, and that they're trying to get answers out of me. I have a right to notice when certain folks who show up time and time again in drama spells suddenly come at me in a topic wherein I've literally never had any actual direct contact with them, but they seem to have a whole lot of deep-seated resentment for me.

Trust is broken. But that goes both ways. You can't have your staff constantly harassed, mocked, and attacked on and off the forums by large swathes of members for extended periods of time, and then go "Gee, I don't know why you think we're a potential outburst waiting to happen; we're not gonna bite." The harsh truth is that y'all are, because outbursts happen without any real foresight on our end, we get shit on as being entirely the problem, and nothing is learned. Respect is further eroded. So you, individually, might be fine, and again we've not had any beef with each other. But at the same time I don't know you as a person and we certainly don't interact enough to be what I would consider a true online friends. Why should I trust you, or any other specific member who I've not had extended offline interaction with, as if you are a close friend?

constantly having discussions and roundtables with people, and constantly working with staff in the wee hours of the morning or actually on the clock at my real job(s) to get these agenda items off the ground.

Saying "Mods need to apologize more" and "Mods need to explain more" doesn't wash with me, because we've done that already

what do you think members should do on their end to actually uphold their end of the bargain, if anything?

I'm also weary of talking in generalities and platitudes. I'm a materialist; I like concrete ideas and suggestions based upon an observable consensus for any given issue.

   

Again, I've been in the trenches since like 2018 or so constantly apologizing to people, regardless of whether or not I was the one who pulled the trigger on a decision, constantly ensuring people that we aren't bigots

Hit dog hollers.