Journal of Other Forum Analysis

[benji]

You'd think for a community that thinks everything is terrible, only going to get worse and so on that they'd be more open to the concept of gallows humor and the fact that laughing makes you feel better.

[Averon]

https://www.resetera.com/threads/the-verge-final-fantasy-xvi%E2%80%99s-lack-of-diverse-characters-makes-a-huge-world-feel-small.734409/page-7#post-107972901

This thread is locked as staff goes through a large number of reports. It may take some time for thread to be reopened.

 
The last half of that thread is people slowly realizing that their months of anger about FF16 having no PoC may have been over exaggerated/premature. Also that websites like Kotaku/The Verge was peddling in misinformation. Then, as if some people couldn't let go of their original outrage, pulled out the "they are not black enough" excuse to try to keep their outrage justified.

[jorma]

Mau said:
This thread is terrible

Yeah it truly is a shame black people are still struggling with representation

How are black people struggling with representation? It feels like they're everywhere in media and they represent what? 10-15% of the US population? If anything, brown people are under-represented. 

it's baffling, but i guess it's because they compare themselves to white americans, the only other group in the world that is even more represented.

as a swedish dude i'm giving the hardest sideeye i can muster to these guys! 

and also because they think i should feel represented because some fake mick from boston gets screentime rather than when a black swedish guy gets it.

[benji]

https://www.resetera.com/threads/the-verge-final-fantasy-xvi%E2%80%99s-lack-of-diverse-characters-makes-a-huge-world-feel-small.734409/page-7#post-107972901

This thread is locked as staff goes through a large number of reports. It may take some time for thread to be reopened.

 
The last half of that thread is people slowly realizing that their months of anger about FF16 having no PoC may have been over exaggerated/premature. Also that websites like Kotaku/The Verge was peddling in misinformation. Then, as if some people couldn't let go of their original outrage, pulled out the "they are not black enough" excuse to try to keep their outrage justified.

It's so untrue that it legit calls into question if the writer even got to that area in the game. Like, it's not all that ambiguous, it's obvious, it's multiple speaking role characters as well as non-speaking NPCs, both in the main story quest AND side content. This isn't some thing where a person could conceivably interpret these characters as white. There are just many brown people in the game. They're just not heavily seen in Rosaria and Sanbreque.

Two days, and a few hundred posts in, and you still haven't read the article? She's critical of the developer's handling of race, including their handling of its non-white nation, not claiming the game is entirely white.

The developers on the other hand, have given multiple interviews justifying the game's racial homogeneity.

It really isn't complicated. Yoshi-P was asked a yes or no question, and instead of answering it, he wrote a high school essay on the nature of diversity that used the same language and reasoning a lot of other media gives to justify excluding PoC from the setting. Most people who read that interpreted it as meaning there are no PoC in the game, and it was reported as such for months on prominent websites without anyone at SE stepping in to clarify. Even when directly asked about it again!

It's a reasonable assumption that the face of the game knew what he was talking about, so this affected people's perception of it. Some saw the game's PoC as tan white people because they spent months under the impression that there were no PoC here, and the game itself doesn't seem to do much to dispel that interpretation. They have one light brown, white-passing skin tone as opposed to the wide gamut present in the IRL regions the game is inspired by, and they use the same head and hair models and same accent as all the other white NPCs. The Verge article that this thread is actually about recognizes that they're meant to be PoC, but sees them as a half-assed attempt at diversity, which seems correct to me.

I guess the Dhalmekian NPCs seem to have skin tones a shade darker than Hugo's, sure. That doesn't really change the core argument in the article though, it's just quibbling over details.

Have you actually played the game, and reached the area in question? I apologize, but the way you keep hedging to describe the POCs in the game just makes me think you haven’t It’s REALLY hard to think any person who has actually seen these characters would walk away thinking they’re “white people with tans”. And it’s laughable to think someone could feel that way because of an interview with the producer. Laughable.

I don't even have a PS5, this is just what seems like has happened to me. I'm looking at a stream of the area right now and I'm not sure what I'm supposed to be seeing though? Here are the NPCs that you need to talk to for the chunk of the main story I saw:

I agree that they're intentionally middle eastern-coded and that people saying there are no PoC are wrong, but I don't think it's unbelievable at all if someone reaches this area and, combined with the comments by Yoshi-P, get really weirded out when they mistake the characters for a bunch of white people wearing desert robes because the majority them aren't any darker than Clive. Not necessarily unusual for someone from parts of the middle east, but it stands out when this is the only PoC representation in the game.

So yes, the Verge article is clearly wrong about Hugo being the darkest character in the game, Eurogamer is wrong about there being no PoC in the game, and Yoshi-P is an idiot. All of that is both true and basically irrelevant to the article's larger point that the approach to diversity in the game is half-assed and, with a few outliers, consists of characters that would look and sound exactly like NPCs anywhere else if you just swapped their clothes.

With how American centric this website is, it's not a surprise how can some people here can be hostile or downright racist toward MENA people.
To be disappointed or to criticize the game or its producer for his word or for the handling of PoC is fine and natural.

But to litterally take a shade chart to dismiss an entire people or culture ? To go as far as to say "yeah, they don't mind "tanned people" (wtf ????) because of colourism" in today's climate and post 9/11 is tone deaf af and completly out of reality. Seriously, Tfou 3lik.

Unfortunately a lot of people here seem to be specifically talking about the inclusion of sub-saharan africans when the topic of diversity comes up, and consider any other addition of PoC flawed or half-baked.

It is absolutely NOT nonsense. Don't misconstrue this as speaking for every single minority, but anti-black racism and "ideal minority" mindsets absolutely DO exist. The majority of racism i've encountered towards myself in my life have been from non-whites. (Hi 905ers!)

And that is without going into the colourism aspect that affects many cultures across the globe. (if you are even the same ethnicity you are seen as "lower class" if your skin is darker in a lot of cultures)

Once again though, that is obfuscating the issue. Tanned white, Arab, ambiguously brown, it don't matter in this instance. Point being that is the limit of what is "allowed" in this, and many other games. And this development team is going to slide by with their wack as fuck excuse for it because yall feel pressed about it. Well thanks.

It is non-sense when you talk about "other non-white ethnicities" feeling superior or when you're talking about white passing and MENA in today's climate. If what you're claiming is basically "yeah, they put desert people because they're lighter skinned and have white passing", then yeah, you're completly tone deaf and haven't been paying attention to the world post 9/11.

And while there are individuals, not ethnicities, who feel superior to others because they feel like "being the good one". It is about individuals, not ethnicities and it is something you can even see from a person who is black.

Even worse, that kind of argument was definitely not necessary to highlight that, while it may have MENA representation of some sort, at least inspired, which is another topic altogether, it is not enough and diverse (because diversity isn't two different people only).

Hmm, looking back at my post, I would emphasize:

"...To me personally, the reasoning [Yoshida] used is more troubling than the actual level or extent of ethnic diversity depicted in the game itself..."

Some folks are seeing meaningful representation of MENA individuals in the game, which is nice to hear. I do nonetheless still agree with folks who say we can also consider additional issues (namely colorism).

Not in order to undermine MENA representation, but to highlight a systemic bias that is prevalent within many societies worldwide (and not just in Japan; a bias that occurs within MENA and South Asian and African societies themselves). Pulling up a few sources: one / two / three / four.

This bias can often result in the underrepresentation of certain groups, particularly those with darker skin tones.

In addressing colorism, we're advocating for a more inclusive and diverse representation across all ethnicities and skin tones.

If you're trying to say that MENA people benefits from colourism in today's climate, you've been asleep for the last 22 years and you're being completly tone deaf. Especially when you seem to imply that you're more likely to see MENA representation because of that.

I find it truly embarrassing we have people on here trying defend this shit with random screen shots of some mildly tanned character model. I say model because these people are Sure as hell not key to the story in any shape or form. Oh look some random NPC is slightly brown. There is your diversity how dare you be upset. Fucking hell.

Good god, some of you should at least look at YouTube videos of playthroughs of this area before you start mouthing off. The characters people are talking about in this thread all play a role when the Dhalmekian Republic area is unlocked. They’re featured heavily in every major storyline there.

Lot of dismissing of concerns about representation happening, I don't feel safe.

[Averon]

Their concept of diversity/representation is limited to just black people, and maybe sometimes women. East Asians don't count since they are "white adjacent" apparently. Middle Eastern representation don't count because they are sufficiently "white coded."

[benji]

This seems to be about Street Fighter instead but I really enjoyed it:

JP is not “very clearly” brown. He is quite literally ethnically ambiguous and coded white. Like an actual fucking colonizer in the game’s story.

Secondly, I didn’t say shit about the roster being too white, I said there wasn’t enough Black and Brown people.

Finally, I don’t give a damn if it’s a little better than SFV (and in terms of Black and Brown representation, it actually has EVEN LESS at launch), it’s not enough.

[benji]

Ok this is the second quote I’ve seen from Yoshi in this thread about diversity and I’ve yet to see where he said there are no POC. I had never actually seen his quoted words just reports and topics about what he said.

In a previous topic I said his reasoning was bullshit without actually reading his words and just going by reporting. Having read what you just posted I get what he was trying to say and don’t really have an issue with his thoughts.

mods help

[kaleidoscopium]

The infamous 6/10 for lack of diversity is looking even sillier now, did they even finish the game?

[Uncle]

as a swedish dude i'm giving the hardest sideeye i can muster to these guys!   

representation 👏 matters 👏

[Uncle]

The infamous 6/10 for lack of diversity is looking even sillier now, did they even finish the game?

I love how we all said that if there WAS diversity, they would also be complaining about that too, as handled wrong, too ethnic, not ethnic enough, an insult to the actual people it represents, token representation, on and on

and this is exactly what's happening now and the equally-petty shitfit completely justifies the road not taken, not even trying and avoiding it all completely

[JoeBoy101]

On a side note on FF,



Gaming Journalism.

[Boredfrom]

Dhalmekia is so not fucking white. They even have the local quest giver making fun of the fat white adventure capitalist with an axe. Dude also crossdressed (I think) when he was younger. 

But RE is gonna RE.

[Taco Bell Tower]

https://www.resetera.com/threads/all-physical-editions-of-starfield-will-include-a-code-for-the-chosen-platform-not-a-physical-disc-up-tweet-deleted-ca-box-art-lists-xbox-x-s.734823/#post-107975154
Finally, Planetsmasher has a legitimate reason to be angry about something.

Why even buy games anymore if this is the way the industry wants to trend? Just gross. I'm still pissed about Alan Wake 2.

[Taco Bell Tower]

https://www.resetera.com/threads/character-costumes-are-there-any-that-you-refuse-to-change.734814/#post-107974617

I got everyone’s 2nd outfit in SF6 EXCEPT Cammy & Juri’s, so them.

Also, I kept the main outfits for the XB3 cast (like what you said you’re considering doing).

[Taco Bell Tower]

https://www.resetera.com/threads/remember-me-one-of-dontnod%E2%80%99s-greatest-games.734832/#post-107977365

Ah yes, the traditional ass cover.

[D3RANG3D]

Spoiler:  (click to show)(click to hide)

[HaughtyFrank]

This seems to be about Street Fighter instead but I really enjoyed it:

JP is not “very clearly” brown. He is quite literally ethnically ambiguous and coded white. Like an actual fucking colonizer in the game’s story.

Secondly, I didn’t say shit about the roster being too white, I said there wasn’t enough Black and Brown people.

Finally, I don’t give a damn if it’s a little better than SFV (and in terms of Black and Brown representation, it actually has EVEN LESS at launch), it’s not enough.

JP is not “very clearly” brown

Uhhhhhhhhhhhhhh

[HeavenIsAPlaceOnEarth]

Blue eyes = white coded.

There are only two races, African American, and Various Shades of White.

[Uncle]

Blue eyes = white coded.

There are only two races, African American, and Various Shades of White.

BELIEVE IN THE HEART OF THE CARDS

[killamajig]

Is this guy white?


This is Mustafa, he's from the Brahui Tribe. 

Trying to equate skin color with race or whatever in cartoon-looking fantasy people is dumb.

[HaughtyFrank]

FFXVI actually having non-white characters is the funniest shit. Crossing Eden trying to damage control

I think it also makes little sense for POC to only show up later in the game and not much earlier. Like if there's a region with POC and this realm has existed for thousands of years there would be far more of them around.

"Oh but why do the characters only show up later in the game. Nice try Nazi Square"

[Boredfrom]

Holy shit, the game not only have PoC characters:

Spoiler:  (click to show)(click to hide)

One of the Eikons is Gay. He shares a kiss with his lover. He is also one of the few good guys of his faction

But Yoshi-P is alt-right and a Nazi. 

[Hap Shaughnessy]

https://www.resetera.com/threads/final-fantasy-xvi-review-thread.733335/page-29#post-107762754

User Banned (1 month): Dismissing Concerns of Representation

Some of Eurogamer's arguments to bash on the game are just... Wow...
So now reviewing is based on your own expectations and whether you get all your boxes ticked rather than the actual game you're playing. Well, hopefully the game sells in millions and proves them that nobody cares about their 3/5 except for a good laugh

https://www.resetera.com/threads/final-fantasy-xvi-review-thread.733335/page-43#post-107795667

User Banned (1 Month): Dismissive Commentary Regarding Representation and Diversity over a Series of Posts

As a person of color, I have no qualms with Square Enix and their creative direction. Besides this series has never been the epitome of diversity, equality, or inclusion, and frankly it shouldn't catch hate for it.

Representation for the sake of representation is stupid.

https://www.resetera.com/threads/final-fantasy-xvi-review-thread.733335/page-44#post-107796678

User Banned (1 month): Dismissing Concerns Around Representation, prior ban for the same behavior

The thing is FF should care about it. They get the majority of their sales from non-JP audiences many of whom are more diverse. You would think diversity would matter then.

I don't think mutually exclusive. In fact each FF has been made with tastes of and interest of creators in foremost. Like they didn't make black characters like Barret and Sazh because they trying check off diversity list to win black people over. FFXII wasn't set in a fantasy mediterranean world because they wanted greeks and Turks to like the game for marketability. I prefer they continue operating this way in adding representation is more matter of diverse creative influences in staff and media and not something demanded of them just because and I say this as black man.

[Hap Shaughnessy]

https://www.resetera.com/threads/spielberg-socrsese-anderson-hold-emergency-meeting-with-zaslav-over-cuts-to-tcm-other-celebrities-rally-around-the-channel.734016/page-2#post-107905926

User Banned (1 week): trolling

the beloved classic film channel TCM

🙄doubt

touchstone of countless film enthusiasts.

I bet it wouldn't take too long to count them actually.

[HardcoreRetro]

Nothing is more progressive than walking up to people with a colour swatch to decide if they're ethnic/brown/black enough.

[Red Cyclone]

This seems to be about Street Fighter instead but I really enjoyed it:

JP is not “very clearly” brown. He is quite literally ethnically ambiguous and coded white. Like an actual fucking colonizer in the game’s story.

Secondly, I didn’t say shit about the roster being too white, I said there wasn’t enough Black and Brown people.

Finally, I don’t give a damn if it’s a little better than SFV (and in terms of Black and Brown representation, it actually has EVEN LESS at launch), it’s not enough.

SF6 has to be one of the most diverse games ever made and they're still complaining.

[kaleidoscopium]

Nothing is more progressive than walking up to people with a colour swatch to decide if they're ethnic/brown/black enough.

They flipped the Family guy race card meme like so:

[Potato]

They are just middle class american gaspers. If they were born 100 years ago they'd be at the vanguard of prohibition. Every position is riven with evangelical language games. Of course they don't find edgy humour funny, they don't have a sense of humour.

Also this is revealing a bit much but you know how they won't shut the fuck up about diversity in FF16? Well it's the first time I can EVER remember a main story character having the same accent as me. It's a terrible attempt at geordie but it's there for once. And you know what, the story is actually about regionalism and pertinent to the history and events of where I'm from.

Please tell me they tried to capture the Geordie lingo as well?

If there's a "Howay man" or a "radgie" thrown in, then I might consider playing a Final Fantasy game again.

[Potato]

This seems to be about Street Fighter instead but I really enjoyed it:

JP is not “very clearly” brown. He is quite literally ethnically ambiguous and coded white. Like an actual fucking colonizer in the game’s story.

Secondly, I didn’t say shit about the roster being too white, I said there wasn’t enough Black and Brown people.

Finally, I don’t give a damn if it’s a little better than SFV (and in terms of Black and Brown representation, it actually has EVEN LESS at launch), it’s not enough.

It's never enough for you fuckwits!

[Potato]

The infamous 6/10 for lack of diversity is looking even sillier now, did they even finish the game?

They review games for a woke gaming site. What do you think?