Journal of Other Forum Analysis (Volume II, Issue 1)

[Uncle]

cops are only bad when they make bad enforcement decisions, the rest of the time they're actually great and necessary

[nachobro]

only getting nintex likes is probably a bad sign but ill still post this shit

[Propagandhim]

like it really feels that not so long ago america was mocked for trying to police the world. now we say "okay, you're right. you got this" and we're the bad guy

defending a democratic ally against unprovoked aggression from a dictator-state and protecting international norms against territorial conquest is not the same 'world police' shit. There's a fundamental difference between unilateral military interventions (which earned criticism) and building broad international coalitions to support a nation defending itself against invasion.  I guess everyone has become a cynic.

[nachobro]

again, let europe take the lead on this. its literally on their doorstep and we give them everything military anyway. we've given plenty to ukraine and really nothing has changed. how long should we personally fund this war that will never end well for ukraine?

not trying to be on some "trump the master" shit but he's right in one way. ukraine holds no cards. they have nothing and will never win. at some point you gotta make a deal to end this.

[killamajig]

U.S.A. intervening anywhere no matter what side we take...

[Gamegirl Nostalgia]

Ukraine winning? I thought all this was about bleeding Russian resources.

[Nintex]

have we not been giving and giving to ukraine? i'd rather not be the world police, personally. let europe handle this.

only so long an unwinnable war can be funded

Pretty much and this war stopped being about Ukraine a long time ago.

After they told Zelensky to scuttle the first peace deal it has been used as a means to kill as many Russian troops as possible or simply give Putin a bloody nose. 
On the Russian side it was fighting imaginary Nazis first until they finally came clean they wanted to block the expansion of NATO. 

All both sides have done since is pour oil onto the fire. Zelensky as President has been more hawkish than his military command.

Trump is right, end the war where it stands. Put some peace keepers on the new border. Invest in Ukrainian industry and the economy. 
If Zelensky can't do that he needs to step aside. There is no strategy to win this war unless you want to as Trump put it, gamble with World War III.

If we get 80% of Ukraine and Putin gets the ~20% he conquered that's still us winning this thing. Putin didn't take all of Ukraine and there will be a European army blocking future attacks.

[Propagandhim]

again, let europe take the lead on this. its literally on their doorstep and we give them everything military anyway. we've given plenty to ukraine and really nothing has changed. how long should we personally fund this war that will never end well for ukraine?
not trying to be on some "trump the master" shit but he's right in one way. ukraine holds no cards. they have nothing and will never win. at some point you gotta make a deal to end this.

I feel like the stakes are much higher than you're leading on and there's going to be major consequences for shirking our responsibility and leadership for security in the international order here, but whatever.  On a pure utility level: it will probably help prevent potentially much larger military commitments later if we keep grinding Russia's military and economy down.  What can I say to convince you otherwise that hasn't already been said?  It's the same arguments over and over...so we'll see what happens, I guess.  It's not like I don't understand your position or I'm angry with people who hold it, but I think we just fundamentally disagree about things that can't be ironed out.

[Uncle]

again, let europe take the lead on this. its literally on their doorstep and we give them everything military anyway. we've given plenty to ukraine and really nothing has changed. how long should we personally fund this war that will never end well for ukraine?

not trying to be on some "trump the master" shit but he's right in one way. ukraine holds no cards. they have nothing and will never win. at some point you gotta make a deal to end this.

actually though russia sucks and helping ukraine is the most we could do to seriously damage them without actually declaring war on them, it was kind of genius really

forced them to overextend themselves and reveal to the world exactly how much military power they had, what kind of shitty tech they were working with, how surprisingly weak they actually are that they even struggled with this

even if they "won" today and absorbed all of ukraine it would take them forever to recover from this, and it wouldn't have played out like this if not for the US support

Ukraine winning? I thought all this was about bleeding Russian resources.

[nachobro]

okay so we exposed russia already, we wasted tons of their resources and showed they are a paper tiger.

why keep this going and going and going? continuing down this road of war is not helping any "side" at this point.

[Boredfrom]

again, let europe take the lead on this. its literally on their doorstep and we give them everything military anyway. we've given plenty to ukraine and really nothing has changed. how long should we personally fund this war that will never end well for ukraine?

not trying to be on some "trump the master" shit but he's right in one way. ukraine holds no cards. they have nothing and will never win. at some point you gotta make a deal to end this.

Wait, are you serious?

[Uncle]

again, let europe take the lead on this. its literally on their doorstep and we give them everything military anyway. we've given plenty to ukraine and really nothing has changed. how long should we personally fund this war that will never end well for ukraine?
not trying to be on some "trump the master" shit but he's right in one way. ukraine holds no cards. they have nothing and will never win. at some point you gotta make a deal to end this.

I feel like the stakes are much higher than you're leading on and there's going to be major consequences for shirking our responsibility and leadership for security in the international order here, but whatever.  On a pure utility level: it will probably help prevent potentially much larger military commitments later if we keep grinding Russia's military and economy down.  What can I say to convince you otherwise that hasn't already been said?  It's the same arguments over and over...so we'll see what happens, I guess.  It's not like I don't understand your position or I'm angry with people who hold it, but I think we just fundamentally disagree about things that can't be ironed out.

the other consequences are the rest of the world saying "wow ok the US cannot be trusted, let's buddy up with china now and start adopting their currency rather than the dollar, investing with them, getting intertwined with their tech and companies, surely this will never backfire in any way"

[nachobro]

boredfrom, please be quiet for once. this resetti "omg can you believe this" posting is extremely stupid and just leads to you continuing to look like a fool.

[nachobro]

All both sides have done since is pour oil onto the fire. Zelensky as President has been more hawkish than his military command.

Trump is right, end the war where it stands. Put some peace keepers on the new border. Invest in Ukrainian industry and the economy. 
If Zelensky can't do that he needs to step aside. There is no strategy to win this war unless you want to as Trump put it, gamble with World War III.

this is what i mean. zelensky seems convinced hes going to completely push out russia. this will not happen without a giant escalation, its just not possible and is a pointless goal to strive towards. salvage what can be salvaged now, let europe handle the security guarantees he wants, and start rebuilding. throwing more bodies at this won't end well.

[Boredfrom]

okay so we exposed russia already, we wasted tons of their resources and showed they are a paper tiger.

why keep this going and going and going? continuing down this road of war is not helping any "side" at this point.

Because the thing that Putin has in common with Trump is fucking around until he gets his way. People don’t want a WWIII, including Putin, but people don’t want a cynical scumbag that is nostalgic about the authoritarian era of his country. He doesn’t care about how many of his country man die, he already asked another scumbag nation for more meat fodder. 

You know what I’m tired, that I can smell Russia talking points even in my country, with old farts stupid enough to think is still the Soviet Union teaching the youth about how Soviet Russia was cool while pretending they are compatible with current western leftist values.

[Boredfrom]

All both sides have done since is pour oil onto the fire. Zelensky as President has been more hawkish than his military command.

Trump is right, end the war where it stands. Put some peace keepers on the new border. Invest in Ukrainian industry and the economy. 
If Zelensky can't do that he needs to step aside. There is no strategy to win this war unless you want to as Trump put it, gamble with World War III.

this is what i mean. zelensky seems convinced hes going to completely push out russia. this will not happen without a giant escalation, its just not possible and is a pointless goal to strive towards. salvage what can be salvaged now, let europe handle the security guarantees he wants, and start rebuilding. throwing more bodies at this won't end well.

Bend over bend over, let Putin come over.

[nachobro]

Bend over bend over, let Putin come over.

whats the endgame then?

[Boredfrom]

boredfrom, please be quiet for once. this resetti "omg can you believe this" posting is extremely stupid and just leads to you continuing to look like a fool.

“I never say stupid shit or get hated.”  

[Gamegirl Nostalgia]

The end game is destabilizing Russia to the point of forcing them to economically side with the west so that they can all gang up on the true superpower of the world.

China. 

[nachobro]

perhaps if we unite every nation against china they'll rehire the marvel rivals team

[Boredfrom]

Bend over bend over, let Putin come over.

whats the endgame then?

That the war genuinely becomes unsustainable for him, that BOTH Europe and the U.S. supported the country. Fucker is salivating that he has Trump willing to be his bitch for whenever reason, so the peace talks are RIDICULOUS ONE SIDED. A peace deal in this conditions is only beneficial to him.

[Propagandhim]

okay so we exposed russia already, we wasted tons of their resources and showed they are a paper tiger.

why keep this going and going and going? continuing down this road of war is not helping any "side" at this point.

I'll bite here, but I know this will go nowhere and I don't really have the time for another one of these conversations...but progress has been made.  Ukraine has reclaimed over 50%  of the territory Russia seized since 3 years ago. They can effectively defend themselves if they have support.  Russia has suffered catastrophic losses - over 700,000 military casualties - US officials say around 120k deaths and 180k injured.  The losses are not stopping, they're rising at staggering rates.  All of this shows they're making progress.  I'm not cheering on the loss of life, but I'm assuming that there must be a limit the aggressor is willing to withstand, and that limit will be met at some point.  1100 Russian soldiers lost per day does have an effect.   

So why abandon this progress now? Why erase our investment that has shown to severely degrade Russia's military capabilities and expose their operational weaknesses? Ukraine maintains a strategic foothold in Russia's Kursk region thanks to the support they've been given, it's a crucial bargaining chip in potential negotiations.  The support has real tangible effects for their future and the future of the international order.   Without continued U.S. support, Ukraine would likely lose its ability to hold current positions and reclaim occupied territories.  Europe and the US need to work together.  Abandoning Ukraine now would not only surrender these territories but would validate a dictator's strategy of territorial conquest through force - it's the wrong thing to do.  Putin has consistently rejected any ceasefire except on terms of complete Ukrainian capitulation.  

And, really...would ending support bring peace? It would reward aggression and potentially embolden other authoritarian states to pursue similar territorial ambitions. After all this money invested in Ukraine's defense and the degradation of russia's military and economy, abandoning them now would severely damage America's credibility as a reliable partner and strategic leader in front of everyone.   And honestly, considering the scale of each conflict, Resetera is right to question why Republicans are having this conversation about money pinched to Ukraine but not Israel - it's not orders of magnitude more money, but the scale is.  I can't fault them for wanting consistency in that regard.  Okay, Neolib-igandhim out.

[nachobro]

That the war genuinely becomes unsustainable for him, that BOTH Europe and the U.S. supported the country. Fucker is salivating that he has Trump willing to be his bitch for whenever reason, so the peace talks are RIDICULOUS ONE SIDED. A peace deal in this conditions is only beneficial to him.

how many more years will that take? how many more dead soldiers? and what's left afterwards in ukraine? you just said putin fucks around til he gets his way so clearly hes not going to end this.

[nachobro]

the US already supports this by funding the entire european military we haven't stopped that and for all their pretending to be mad at us, the euro leaders haven't said they don't want our money or weapons.

[Propagandhim]

Europe funds their own military....and has sent over 80b euros of their own money to Ukraine.  Are you talking about Americans stationed in Europe?  Or the money put into the EDI?

[Nintex]

Macron said today that Europe should've send troops at the beginning of the invasion. I was in favor of that back in the day too, call out Putins bluff and send an army into West Ukraine and impose a no-fly zone. 
 
If Zelensky is unwilling to make peace, he should step aside.

[Boredfrom]

The thing about Ukrainian war is how ridiculous one sided and morally clear it started. The talking points about Zelensky “asking for it” (  ) ignores how ghoulish Russia acted in the initial negotiations and how much was willing to have an initial compromise.

Is the brazen shit that you rarely see in armed conflicts. 

I dont doubt the Ukrainian army is totally clean or haven’t done awful shit, it is war after all. But somehow Putin made clear he is the malicious agent.

[nachobro]

Europe funds their own military....and has sent over 80b euros of their own money to Ukraine.  Are you talking about Americans stationed in Europe?  Or the money put into the EDI?

americans in europe, european deterrance, and nato funding (though at least germany pays into that)

either way we're clearly not going to agree on this but i think/hope at some point all sides involved are going to have to realize this needs to stop

[Boredfrom]

Is like NATO benefits both the U.S. and the European Union.

People thought that NATO was a useless relic until, surprise surprise, Russia got aggressive again.

[Nintex]

Zelensky is just in over his head