Journal of Other Forum Analysis (Volume II, Issue 2)

[Propagandhim]

Fuck Raytheon for downsizing, being less productive, and losing marketshare.  No company that earns money from lethal technologies such as weapons sold to Saudi Arabia and later used against Yemeni civilians deserves to exist..... if they can't figure out how to balance their budget and keep their employees onboard!

[benji]

I actually didn't know Microsoft had so many employees, over 9000 is only 4% of the entire company. That probably doesn't even count all their contractors, I wonder if they theoretically have 500K people working for them.

"Why doesn't Microsoft, the largest of the video game companies, not simply eat other video games companies?" was true.

[HeavenIsAPlaceOnEarth]

Well, now we see the cis anger at lesbian joy from an endless parade of sniveling cowards and traitors. Instead of sitting down, shutting up and listening to create a lesbian gaze Dead or Alive or celebrating the queer euphoria of Transformers or Sam & Max we get calls for normalizing fascism so as to exterminate all signs of wlw. All because of male fragility at women existing.

The Shreds post thing is the in-road to oppression though.

The moment you give society and the powers that be permission to bar a minority group from participating in a facet of society in a healthy and appropriate way, you have no ethical recourse to stop them from going after that minority group in other ways. Because you already said it was okay.

You also, then, have no ethical recourse for when they start targeting other minorities and oppressed peoples. Because of trans healthcare is on the table, for example, then your healthcare also is, because you've already let people know that it's okay to bar certain people from healthcare.

You have to have lines in the sand and give no quarter. Either we all get to be free or none of us do.

And in the month after Pride Month of all months.

Take up arms. We will need cis people to literally fight at this point.

[HaughtyFrank]

The thing with Resetera is also that there never seems to be a good reason to close a studio. Like I agree that closing Tango was bad because while not making financial successes they had a lot of potential and uniquely added to the brand with unusual games. Meanwhile a studio like The Initiative seems to have been a disaster from top to bottom not producing a single finished product within 7 years and even requiring support from Crystal Dynamics. This was a studio that was initially touted as AAAA.

Can probably put some blame on MS for not managing the studio better but I'm not shocked at all they got shut down

[Besticus Maximus]

The thing with Resetera is also that there never seems to be a good reason to close a studio. Like I agree that closing Tango was bad because while not making financial successes they had a lot of potential and uniquely added to the brand with unusual games. Meanwhile a studio like The Initiative seems to have been a disaster from top to bottom not producing a single finished product within 7 years and even requiring support from Crystal Dynamics. This was a studio that was initially touted as AAAA.

Can probably put some blame on MS for not managing the studio better but I'm not shocked at all they got shut down

[benji]

There's a huge difference between deliberately putting millions of lives in danger and studios that simply have criminal sexual harassment leading to suicide, as every company in the gaming industry has, being shut down just because capitalism suppresses the creation of art to make yts feel better about their being too worthless to create any culture.

[HaughtyFrank]

Though also have to say, I think Xbox is basically shutting down, they're just pulling the plug slowly and no boycott or support is really changing the trajectory at this point. In the end you'll have Activision, Bethesda, Mojang and some studios here and there but the intent to compete with Sony and Nintendo is over

[Propagandhim]

They're always on about capitalism as irredeemably destructive and zero-sum, picking winners and losers, and it can't be reformed because it's all baked into the cake.  Yet when it comes to their favorite hobby, they'll struggle with this concept and have all this friction and refusal to accept it.  They need people like Geoff Keighley to solemnly say some speech on a stage lamenting gaming layoffs (and god help him if he doesn't) - there needs to be like performance art associated with all the actors involved when the bad shit of capitalism happens...in a system they've already accepted to be rotten and exploitative..why?  Capitalism in gaming needs to make sense in a totally different way than what they accept as making sense elsewhere, to them.  Outside of their favorite hobby, is there any other field that they have this much patience for and try to coax capitalism to grow a conscience for as much as this one?     They aren't even at the step where they can conclusively say they won't accept Microsoft ad money because of their involvement with Israel's military...This would be an open and shut case for them outside of gaming - but they're still negotiating that one out in their head.

[benji]

I guess we could always do away with capitalism in the gaming industry and enslave the developers like Nolan Bushnell Ray Kassar envisioned originally.

Spoiler:  (click to show)(click to hide)

[benji]

Meanwhile a studio like The Initiative seems to have been a disaster from top to bottom not producing a single finished product within 7 years and even requiring support from Crystal Dynamics. This was a studio that was initially touted as AAAA.

Presumably they were doing ethical game development and individually modeling every leaf and blade of grass instead of generating them with a routine like everybody's done for the last quarter of a century. Not to mention not subjecting Joanna Dark's design to the male gaze.

[benji]

Actually, wait, can't believe I didn't realize this during the earlier topic. Why aren't we condemning the Switch 2 for using DLSS? That's AI.

Spoiler:  (click to show)(click to hide)

Or all the consoles having shaders.  

[Jansen]

I will NEVER stop posting about topaz's hotel room nightmare suffering at the hands of an incompetent hooman.

Y'all need reality shoved in your faces. You can't stand on the sidelines and avert your eyes any longer 

[Propagandhim]

https://www.resetera.com/threads/wired-the-ai-backlash-keeps-growing-stronger.1235118/


Getting your news from and telling people to watch a John Oliver clip is the equivalent of @Grok IS DIS TRUE AI slop.

I truly don't understand how it's only artists that have responded in an organized fashion

Culture clash.

A great deal of the marketing and social fervor behind AI, whether or not the proselytizers want to openly admit it at this point, has been the aggressive, vitriolic insistence of the expendability of not just the artist as a person but the actual act of sitting down to make a piece of art. AI proponents do not value actually making art because if they did, they'd fucking make art. They only value the final commodity and the potential prestige owning that commodity brings in a society that values property over people which, you know, expected of a capitalist-pilled population. This isn't really the same for computer engineers or scientists mainly because their output is less concrete, but these professions are already valued financially and socially. It also doesn't help that a great deal of AI proponents are naturally STEM folks in the first place; they don't give a shit about this humanities nonsense.

However, this has all felt like a final straw or mask off moment of sorts to the bullshit that artists have gotten in general as a profession for perhaps centuries: we're idiots worthy of mockery ("lol, how much did your degree cost?") or pitiable fools ("you must starve and suffer for your passion.") for pursuing something that doesn't guarantee a consistent income, until the income does start coming in, at which point how fucking dare you make a living off of something "anyone can do?" AI is people's chance to bring us down a peg, as if we're guilty of anything other than deciding to spend our time in a different way than they did. So artists have had enough and we've decided to actually fight this bullshit.

Ultimately there's something about being able to make art that just really sticks in the craw of people who refuse to take the time to learn how to do it no matter how many free tutorials and encouragement you throw their way, and I haven't fully figured it out yet in my over 30 years of drawing. Maybe it's the mistaken belief that it's some special gift only bestowed upon God's favorite children or some shit. I don't know. All I know is my skill at being able to draw has invited a mix of legitimate ire and immediate attempts to take advantage of me (if one more person asks me to make an entire children's book for free, I'm going to shoot someone), and it's not new behavior at all.

However, this has all felt like a final straw or mask off moment of sorts to the bullshit that artists have gotten in general as a profession for perhaps centuries: we're idiots worthy of mockery ("lol, how much did your degree cost?")

Yeah, because you have an art degree and you work at Walgreens.  Doesn't seem like it's paying off, so it's a legitimate question.

pitiable fools ("you must starve and suffer for your passion.")

The "starving artist" has been a trope since time immemorial because earning a living through art is difficult.  Demand is fickle, supply is vast, and buyers concentrate money in a handful of talent so the median artist doesn't earn much.  Passion often pays in personal fulfilment, but it's not predictable income in the same way other jobs are so making a living as an artist is a really charmed life that you shouldn't just accept as a given.  You can throw a rock at ArtTwitter and find thousands of great, talented artists that aren't able to make a living on their art alone.  It's like any other creative field - musicians, writers, designers...they have a very tough competitive domain to try to make money in.  Nobody is saying you have to starve and suffer for your passion, but to just assume you can make a living from it is incredible entitlement and privilege only an adult living comfortably in her parents' suburban home can develop.  

until the income does start coming in, at which point how fucking dare you make a living off of something "anyone can do?"

Yeah, literally nobody fucking says this.  Get checked for schizophrenia, Nepenthe.

Ultimately there's something about being able to make art that just really sticks in the craw of people who refuse to take the time to learn how to do it no matter how many free tutorials and encouragement you throw their way, and I haven't fully figured it out yet in my over 30 years of drawing. Maybe it's the mistaken belief that it's some special gift only bestowed upon God's favorite children or some shit. I don't know.

Oh you haven't fully figured that one out, huh.  When rent, food and medical bills absorb most disposable time and money, optional skill-building becomes a luxury.  It's that simple. Working on a craft like art is a privilege, one among many privileges and entitlements you take advantage of and pretend you're not living a dignified life.  I love how she has a myriad of arguments for why people score low on the SATs or read at a 3rd grade level as an adult, or do poorly in math, or being involved in crime, or whatever - she has an immediate answer for, but the ability to develop artistic skill is like, a given.   Quality instruction, art supplies, having a safe space to develop the craft, are all available to wealthier schools and communities, right Nepenthe?  Isn't that the argument?  People from low-income families have far lower rates of sustained arts education...so why is she not sympathetic to anyone who would not be able to develop this skill for those and similar reasons? What about health issues like a chronic illness, some kind of disability..hell even ADHD or depression can drain the executive function needed for deliberate practice  - do these excuses not work for art now?   Whatabout just innate gifts that some people dont have like a good visual memory, fine motor control, or being lucky to have early exposure that can give people a head start?  What about cultural advantages that allow certain societies to value this kind of passion work even though there's an opportunity cost?   Why is she suddenly a hardcore, pick yourself up by your bootstraps conservative when it comes to her pet hobby?

All I know is my skill at being able to draw has invited a mix of legitimate ire and immediate attempts to take advantage of me (if one more person asks me to make an entire children's book for free, I'm going to shoot someone), and it's not new behavior at all.

Some goof asking you to do free work and you scoffing it off is not being taken advantage of.  Having someone pay you for a fursuit that you never create and having your money stolen is being taken advantage of.

[benji]

They only value the final commodity and the potential prestige owning that commodity brings in a society that values property over people which, you know, expected of a capitalist-pilled population. This isn't really the same for computer engineers or scientists mainly because their output is less concrete, but these professions are already valued financially and socially.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Forbes_list_of_the_world%27s_highest-paid_musicians
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_highest-paid_film_actors
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_highest-paid_American_television_stars
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Forbes_list_of_the_world%27s_highest-paid_models
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_music_artists_by_net_worth
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Forbes_list_of_the_world%27s_highest-paid_dead_celebrities
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_highest-grossing_media_franchises
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_best-selling_fiction_authors

The global art market recorded an estimated USD 57.5 billion in sales in 2024.

[Propagandhim]

This, based on my experience, is absolutely spot-on. The utterly instantaneous transition from mockery in pursuing the humanities because it's fruitless to mockery for being successful in humanities because it's easy is a microcosm of everything that's wrong with society's assignment of value based on money and money only.

What the fuck are these people talking about?  I've never seen anyone being mocked for being successful in humanities.  Sure, I've seen people mock liberal arts students or whatever...but mock people who are successful at it?  What does that even look like?  "Lol!  You make a living writing books about the literary themes in Dostoevsky's work?  Wow, fuck you for that!"  Nobody does that.

  

My wife and I have several local art pieces in our home - canvas prints and some photography, etc.

"Oh, cool artwork... where did you buy it?"
"Thanks! It's from a local artist we always enjoyed during the art fair, so we asked if we could commission a piece with our family room's colors."
"How much was that?"
"A little less than two grand."
"WHAT? It's canvas and acrylic paint - you could have done it yourself for fifty bucks."
"That is literally not the point at all."


I've had this conversation a dozen times. Or, the absolute mouth gape I get when I tell someone I bought another person's photography. "But you have all those nice cameras - why didn't you just take the picture?"

Who cares that you have a dumb friend that doesn't appreciate the things you appreciate.  Who fucking cares.  That extends to everything beyond art.  You can buy a nice car and someone will say, "But you could have bought a Kia and it's the same thing."  

People think art should be cheap as hell, and it's like "How the fuck am I supposed to eat if I charge you $5 for a 50 hour job?"

It's always been tough to make a living doing art - the "starving artist" trope exists for a reason.  There are good artists that get paid a shitload and have their work appreciated by many and have the ability to pick and choose what commissions they want to do because there's a line out the door waiting on them.  But many do work a ton of hours to produce works that don't sell for that much.  What exactly do you want out of the world?  To force people to buy art at higher prices from people they don't appreciate the work of?  There's nothing you can do about this.  You either try to become one of the lucky few that can dazzle people with amazing art and become a high-demand artist and charge a lot of money for it, or you don't?  Is this like a general complaint against humanity or something?  What does she want solved here?  An economic system where the government pays artists to make art nobody wants?  I don't understand.   

I think jealousy plays a role. They hate their jobs/life and secretly wish they would have artistic talent or craft.

They.... they can have that by just, like.... drawing.
 
Like, it really is that simple.

People can just...like... not be poor by like...studying hard and practicing things like...math.  For the life of me, I don't understand why she doesn't accept that argument?  It's the same exact fucking thing?

"You're so lucky to be able to draw like that."

Also another sentiment that I hate. Like, thanks for erasing the thousands of hours I spent practicing and wrestling with insecurity and imposter syndrome!

"You're lucky to be able to go to get a good job."  Like thanks for erasing the thousands of hours of work?

Again, same exact shit.  But no, it's different. Nepenthe's entirely worldview and philosophy is "Me, me, me"

[benji]

I joke but I think she really does believe that all "non-artists" should be enslaved so "artists" can just make art nobody wants or just not do anything at all. She's constantly projecting so I think this is her inverting her own actual beliefs:

Ultimately there's something about being able to make art that just really sticks in the craw of people who refuse to take the time to learn how to do it no matter how many free tutorials and encouragement you throw their way, and I haven't fully figured it out yet in my over 30 years of drawing. Maybe it's the mistaken belief that it's some special gift only bestowed upon God's favorite children or some shit.

Especially since I don't think I've ever heard this complaint from anyone ever in my life.

[benji]

People think art should be cheap as hell, and it's like "How the fuck am I supposed to eat if I charge you $5 for a 50 hour job?"

That's weird, they say this about literally everything else almost every five minutes.

I think jealousy plays a role. They hate their jobs/life and secretly wish they would have artistic talent or craft.

[benji]

https://www.resetera.com/threads/wired-the-ai-backlash-keeps-growing-stronger.1235118/


Getting your news from and telling people to watch a John Oliver clip is the equivalent of @Grok IS DIS TRUE AI slop.

Although many critics dubbed the 1950s as the Golden Age of Television, the actuality was that many believed that television failed to reach the lofty intellectual and cultural expectations that accompanied its introduction. Common critical phrases regarding the TV were “boob tube” and “cultural wasteland.”

Other criticisms aimed at TV were that television has turned society into an audience that is dependent on the need for constant entertainment. People spent more time in the house than ever before. People no longer needed to go to major events, they could watch them on the television without the hassle of transportation to the event or the cost of the ticket. This gave rise to the derogatory term “couch potato.” In addition, it was said that TV destroyed the sense of community, discouraged reading, shortened attention spans, and promoted violence. Typical complaints included: “Television content generally strives to be popular and profitable first, entertaining second, and informational third, if at all.” (https://press.rebus.community/mscy/chapter/chapter-5-television-through-time/). “Popular television content is made to entertain, not inform. The most entertaining and popular shows of the 20th century were not poorly made, nor were they necessarily detrimental to society as mainstays of the culture. They were, however, usually void of thoughtful social content. Television often serves to distract…. If the television craze continues with the present level of programs, we are destined to have a nation of morons.” (Quoting the president of Boston University in 1950 graduation speech, “The American Television Critic: A History,” Melissa Crowley, p.18.) Theologian Reinhold Niebuhr predicted in 1949 that “much of what is still wholesome in our lives will perish under the impact of this visual aid.”

...

Edward R. Murrow was considered the conscience and spiritual leader of TV news. In 1958, Murrow delivered a critique of the TV industry known as the “Wires and Lights in a Box” speech. Near the end of his chastising remarks, Murrow challenged broadcasting’s leaders to use television to “teach,” “illuminate” and “inspire.” Otherwise, he warned, the promise of electronic media would be relegated to “nothing but wires and lights in a box.”

...

“I am seized with an abiding fear regarding what these two instruments (radio and TV) are doing to our society, our culture, our heritage,” Murrow worried, “Television in the main is being used to distract, delude, amuse and insulate us.”

...

On May 9, 1961, Newton N. Minow, chair of the Federal Communication Commission (FCC) that regulated television broadcasting, gave a speech to the National Association of Broadcasters. Minow’s speech was quite critical of the industry he regulated. In his opinion, television producers failed to meet the objective of upholding the public interest. He believed that “when television is good, nothing — not the theater, not the magazines or newspapers — nothing is better. But when television is bad, nothing is worse.” He described the programming offered on television as a “vast wasteland.” “You will see a procession of game shows, formula comedies about totally unbelievable families, blood and thunder, mayhem, violence, sadism, murder, western bad men, western good men, private eyes, gangsters, more violence, and cartoons. And endlessly, commercials — many screaming, cajoling, and offending. And most of all, boredom. True, you’ll see a few things you will enjoy. But they will be very, very few.”

Imagine what you could find from recent decades said about YouTube, maybe even including on ResetERA.com itself.

[Blueball]

I don't quite get the logic here. Xbox is closing studios because they're failing at the market so now out of protest I will stop supporting them?

Sure MS is a juggernaut who technically could eat the costs but that's not really how businesses work and probably not even something up to Spencer.

It makes more sense to me to stop supporting them because well, they're clearly not offering much anymore

I honestly think a lot of people on that forum can't just like something, it has to be imparted to some greater cosmic purpose that gives the person meaning. 

They should spend all their online time stalking people instead. Maybe they could make a forum of it!

[Blueball]

https://thebire.com/forum/showthread.php?tid=378&pid=136635

This dude desperately wants to be part of some conversation but he can't post from era so he has them by himself. 

[benji]

They should spend all their online time stalking people instead. Maybe they could make a forum of it!

Why would they need another one? 

This dude desperately wants to be part of some conversation but he can't post from era so he has them by himself. 

I could post on Era but I don't wish to post with openly dishonest and bigoted people like yourself, so I have the conversation here with the people here on my own property. I'm talking to anyone who reads it. 

I've given you more than enough time here to pretend to display good faith after falsely claiming you wanted to actually debate and discuss topics with people, unless that changes in the future I won't be playing along anymore so your specific time would be better spent getting Jeff to stop lying about streaming.

[simiansmarts]

I don't quite get the logic here. Xbox is closing studios because they're failing at the market so now out of protest I will stop supporting them?

Sure MS is a juggernaut who technically could eat the costs but that's not really how businesses work and probably not even something up to Spencer.

It makes more sense to me to stop supporting them because well, they're clearly not offering much anymore

I honestly think a lot of people on that forum can't just like something, it has to be imparted to some greater cosmic purpose that gives the person meaning. 

They should spend all their online time stalking people instead. Maybe they could make a forum of it!

There is one, it's called kiwifarms

[Besticus Maximus]

Like, thanks for erasing the thousands of hours I spent practicing and wrestling with insecurity and imposter syndrome!

In other words, the thousands of hours spent doing nothing and not succeeding at the thing

[Propagandhim]

https://thebire.com/forum/showthread.php?tid=378&pid=136635

This dude desperately wants to be part of some conversation but he can't post from era so he has them by himself. 

If the dial of ideas was turned to low for the last few years, its quickly moving into the hot position.  Thats what you don't fucking understand.

[benji]

Frankly, she should be mocked for her art degree especially since she complains about the debt she took out for it and demands other people labor to pay for it. Because she doesn't even try to work in art.

Then again maybe I'm not looking at things the right way and I should start claiming to be a historian and complaining about how y'all aren't valuing the humanities properly by not reading my posts so I'm not talking to solely myself anymore.

[Besticus Maximus]

Why try? There's a million other nebulous things in the way before you get past the imposter syndrome and the overwhelming sludge of thinking about doing it. Plus if I do that, who is going to defend my colleagues against these customers looking for discounts based upon our marketing promotions?

[DavidCroquet]

Just to add to the AI shit--if you can't beat 'em, join 'em:

99% of the time that something from the "thousands of great, talented artists" goes viral, or pops off, or even just sells for decent commissions, it is the equivalent of AI Slop, pre-AI slop. 

Draw Princess Peach sexy with big bobbies 😍
Draw generbent link 🏳️‍⚧️
Draw me as a wolf... 🐺
...kissin' Bluey's dad (as a wolf) 🤩

This content was already hewing so close to AI that it might as well be the same thing. The same goes for Youtube (curse you streamerrrrrsss!) and how people have said for years--for example--that thumbnails have to look like a guy making an O-face with a big red arrow because the algorithm. 

A massive subset of the internet was already ingesting and creating tons of content that is very nearly GenAI before GenAI was part of the common parlance. Why so surprised when--after leaning into the expectation of "the algo" for a decade--your social contributions of dubious value are the first things to be undercut?

[Hap Shaughnessy]

They should spend all their online time stalking people instead. Maybe they could make a forum of it!

https://www.resetera.com/threads/j-k-rowling-and-her-legacy-of-hate-the-uk-gender-critical-movement.643740/

https://www.resetera.com/threads/gamergate-2-0-chuds-furious-about-a-consulting-company-named-%E2%80%9Csweet-baby-inc%E2%80%9D-which-overviews-scripts-to-make-sure-nothing-offensive-was-written.823731/

[Besticus Maximus]

If Nepenthe wasn't a luddite she could give herself a huge advantage by getting right the fuck onto the most cutting edge AI animation tools. She could go to a games studio and say look I've got this degree and I'm of the community but I have gone the extra mile and learned how to automate the parts of the process, because my expertise was deep enough for me to understand what was busy work and what was judgement. She could still draw and make or do whatever but she'd have some mastery of a new skill that made her a dynamite hire in the field she loves.

Or she could just spend her days being racist and dodging her own paying fursuit customers on the nazi site she cannot leave for complex reasons.

[TacoWallace]

But why are ree considered a performative, shallow joke?

I feel bad for owning both the Xbox series s and series x. I need to stop supporting Microsoft. I will not renew gamepass (I have until next year) and I will try to sell the series s. Although few people likes Xbox in Norway.

https://www.resetera.com/threads/wc-microsoft-is-closing-down-xbox-studio-the-initiative-perfect-dark-canceled.1234206/page-10#post-142221708

I don't quite get the logic here. Xbox is closing studios because they're failing at the market so now out of protest I will stop supporting them?

Sure MS is a juggernaut who technically could eat the costs but that's not really how businesses work and probably not even something up to Spencer.

It makes more sense to me to stop supporting them because well, they're clearly not offering much anymore

While Xbox is not offering anything unique besides a subscription that affects certain games, they are getting back Final Fantasy. Literal Jawmuncher normalized the narrative that Xbox was dead before your favorite influencer or random youtuber began to profit off of it.

Helldivers II's port should be more of a positive success story. Games like that should be bringing people together instead of keeping the pointless console wars going.

They also had the frontrunner for GOTY (Expedition 33) launch on Game Pass. Would the game have been as fleshed out without the guaranteed MS cash bonus? The extra marketing surely helped optimize some costs too. 

While I don't personally like the guy, it no longer seems possible to find Game Pass case studies which don't immediately devolve into people wishing death upon Phil Spencer.