Journal of Other Forum Analysis

[Gamegirl Nostalgia]

Clicky dodging Iori and instead replies to someone who posted after them. 

[PogiJones]

https://famiboards.com/threads/nintendo-switch-2-speculation-thread-st-there-is-a-little-more-%F0%9F%91%80.7757/post-1378603https://famiboards.com/threads/nintendo-switch-2-speculation-thread-st-there-is-a-little-more-%F0%9F%91%80.7757/post-1378603

I'm done, guys; this is my last post in this thread until the announcement. It's been fun and all, but I got kinda tired and have much better things to do in my free time.

Please use more gender-inclusive language (i.e. "folks, everyone, y'all") instead of "guys". - PixelKnight, MarcelRguez, BassForever

Don’t listen to the mods, guys IS a gender neutral term in English

See 1b here
https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/guy

For a history of dismissing inclusionary initiatives, you are being banned duration pending. - Lord Azrael, meatbag, Zellia, BassForever, MarcelRguez, Dardan Sandiego, Tangerine_Cookie, OctoSplattack, KilgoreWolfe

Not to be rude but..... then why are you even here?

The mods can be wrong and they're wrong in this instance.

For insisting on using "guys" instead of more gender-inclusive terms, you are being banned, duration pending - MarcelRguez, Tangerine_Cookie, BassForever, IsisStormDragon

Every splinter forum just makes the same mistake of making the lunatics mods  

Bonus:

Spoiler:  (click to show)(click to hide)

from now on im going to refer to you all as HUMANS. i cant imagine that any HUMAN would have an issue with that.

For clearly mocking the use of gender-inclusive terms, you are being banned, duration pending. - meatbag, IsisStormDragon, KilgoreWolfe, Tangerine_Cookie, BassForever, OctoSplattack, MarcelRguez, Zellia, Phendrift

Well.... It has the Word Man in it. Hu-Man. It is neutral right now but it could change any Second.

For clearly mocking the use of gender-inclusive terms, you are being banned, duration pending. - MarcelRguez, OctoSplattack, BassForever, KilgoreWolfe

 

[Boredfrom]

https://www.resetera.com/threads/kotaku-concords-initial-development-deal-was-just-over-200-million-not-including-marketing-or-the-studios-purchase.1022415/page-9 

Not a single post from cunting eden

But guys, we need to feel sorry for the studio, the developers and Sony.

[Nintex]

Hello everyone. This thread will be temporarily locked so everyone, and we mean everyone, can read this.

Gender inclusivity means helping all genders feel included. It's not only about avoiding offending others; it's about creating a welcoming space for all genders.

And to this end, we have requested people use more gender-inclusive language, such as referring to people with "folks" instead of "guys", "bros" and "lads. This is something that we will continue to insist on. We are not interested in dictionary definitions.

Henceforth we will be harsher in moderating neglect to be gender-inclusive. Frankly, we don't believe this to be a huge ask at all.

- meatbag, MarcelRguez, Tangerine_Cookie, BassForever, IsidStormDragon, Zellia, Phendrift, karmitt, KilgoreWolfe, Dardan Sandiego

Hey everyone,

We’ve been contacted privately by a few people, so we want to clarify something on our end. We specified in a previous staff post that usage of gendered language will be moderated more harshly going forward. This made a few people understandably nervous. To expand on that - regular usage here and there will remain capped at feedback, just as it always has been. We don’t assume malicious intent, and acknowledge that gendered terms have become ingrained in language to a degree that people might sometimes use them subconsciously. What will receive harsher action is ignoring feedback and belaboring the point through the inappropriate venues. We apologize for giving you the wrong impression.

On the subject of feedback: it has always been that and nothing more - feedback. It is neither a warning nor an indictment. As long as people take it constructively and we see a concerted effort being made to improve, it does not ever have to go past feedback. As mentioned, it is not a judgment of character. We did however ban a few members prior to this staff post. This is because almost all of those members had prior feedback for gendered language or similar dismissal of inclusionary initiatives, and then challenged site values after a staff post. Some of those posts also contained common misogynistic dogwhistles. But similar to the clarification on feedback, let us just take this chance to remind that “duration pending” simply means we have not decided on a ban duration yet. It does not necessarily mean that all of those bans will result in hefty durations. Being transparent, we have been dealing with a deluge of reports from this thread, and simply need more time to discuss.

Switching to the broader topic of gendered language, we really don’t think we’re asking for much here. It’s true that a lot of people, even many women or LGBT folk, perceive a term like “guys” to be gender-neutral. But many others do not, and we have had community members reach out to us and tell us that it makes them feel out of place. Gender-neutral does not always mean gender-inclusive. Even if these people who take issue are hypothetically in the minority, we are always going to defer to those made to feel uncomfortable when the ask is so small. One of Fami’s core tenets is the establishment of a community where everyone feels respected and welcomed.

A recurring complaint about the speculation megathreads is that they have become increasingly impenetrable and foster growing undercurrents counter to Fami’s values. Frankly, this whole issue with gendered language speaks to something bigger. We may be a Nintendo forum, but our community pillars of warmth, respect and inclusivity are always going to take priority over the “right” to discuss Switch 2 news. More than just moderating gendered language, this is emblematic to us of an attitude that values hype and scoops above empathy for others, which was not and will never be what Fami stands for. (As a quick tangent, this also means that no, political discussion is not banned from this thread, despite what a few people may be trying to peddle.)

The thread will remain locked for now, so that everyone has a chance to read this. We deem this far more important than having a place to hype about Switch 2 right now.

- Lord Azrael, meatbag, Phendrift, Zellia, KilgoreWolfe, MarcelRguez, OctoSplattack, Dardan Sandiego, Tangerine_Cookie, IsisStormDragon, Dragoncaine

NO SWITCH 2 HYPE FOR YOU IF YOU AREN'T GENDER INCLUSIVE 

[Orange Juice Box]

https://www.resetera.com/threads/israel-palestine-the-ongoing-israeli-genocide-in-gaza-icj-orders-halt-to-israeli-offensive-on-rafah-see-staff-posts-for-posting-guidelines.772478/page-425#post-130838532

I'm sure most of those that were banned were just anti-semetics in disguise /s

I'm not sure a thread titled "nazis had good points actually" would have has many banned people lol, it's genuinely impressive.

Anyway had no idea the divestment thread existed, thanks for sharing it.

"anti-semetics"

I miss banbot or whatever that thing was called.  Now I have to check this post each day to see if B-Dubs or Nepenthe has more power and determines if he is banned or stays.

[Gamegirl Nostalgia]

https://www.resetera.com/threads/vp-harris-makes-closing-argument-at-spot-of-jan-6-riots.1022076/

dead thread. 

[HaughtyFrank]

https://famiboards.com/threads/nintendo-switch-2-speculation-thread-st-there-is-a-little-more-%F0%9F%91%80.7757/post-1378603https://famiboards.com/threads/nintendo-switch-2-speculation-thread-st-there-is-a-little-more-%F0%9F%91%80.7757/post-1378603

I'm done, guys; this is my last post in this thread until the announcement. It's been fun and all, but I got kinda tired and have much better things to do in my free time.

Please use more gender-inclusive language (i.e. "folks, everyone, y'all") instead of "guys". - PixelKnight, MarcelRguez, BassForever

Don’t listen to the mods, guys IS a gender neutral term in English

See 1b here
https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/guy

For a history of dismissing inclusionary initiatives, you are being banned duration pending. - Lord Azrael, meatbag, Zellia, BassForever, MarcelRguez, Dardan Sandiego, Tangerine_Cookie, OctoSplattack, KilgoreWolfe

Not to be rude but..... then why are you even here?

The mods can be wrong and they're wrong in this instance.

For insisting on using "guys" instead of more gender-inclusive terms, you are being banned, duration pending - MarcelRguez, Tangerine_Cookie, BassForever, IsisStormDragon

Every splinter forum just makes the same mistake of making the lunatics mods  

Bonus:

Spoiler:  (click to show)(click to hide)

from now on im going to refer to you all as HUMANS. i cant imagine that any HUMAN would have an issue with that.

For clearly mocking the use of gender-inclusive terms, you are being banned, duration pending. - meatbag, IsisStormDragon, KilgoreWolfe, Tangerine_Cookie, BassForever, OctoSplattack, MarcelRguez, Zellia, Phendrift

Well.... It has the Word Man in it. Hu-Man. It is neutral right now but it could change any Second.

For clearly mocking the use of gender-inclusive terms, you are being banned, duration pending. - MarcelRguez, OctoSplattack, BassForever, KilgoreWolfe

 

Holy shit, making resetera look sane 

[Gamegirl Nostalgia]

https://www.resetera.com/threads/bernie-discusses-kamalas-position-on-gaza-and-madison-square-garden-rally.1022652/page-2#post-130857108

aaaaand locked!

[PogiJones]

https://famiboards.com/threads/nintendo-switch-2-speculation-thread-st-there-is-a-little-more-%F0%9F%91%80.7757/post-1378621




Wow, I can't believe the mods have let the chuds invade and commit genocidal likes like this. I don't feel safe on famiboards anymore

[Boredfrom]

This industry is in trouble.

Because a hack studio convinced some clueless executives that they were making their own GuardiansOfTheGalaxy?

[Venice]

Clicky dodging Iori and instead replies to someone who posted after them. 

It's very rare to see Cunty Cal get piled on, so I'll copy and paste the entire exchange for my fellow Boreans.

https://www.resetera.com/threads/bernie-discusses-kamalas-position-on-gaza-and-madison-square-garden-rally.1022652/page-2#post-130855683

NGL, after these recent string of threads (this one included), I would not blame a single Palestinian, Arab, or ME user for abandoning this forum wholesale.

Some of y'all really reduce their lives as little more than political talking points to morally grandstand and bloviate. It's high-key infuriating

Cunty responds...

I mean let's say in the case of trans people in the US....if Trump wins, it means full scale genocide country wide. I want my wife and friends and I to not be criminalized. When life is on the line, people will do what they need to survive off instinct.

Iori smacks the little bitch with this...

Say what you mean. It'll make things better for YOU. Not for Palestinians. Things aren't gonna get better for them. You can admit that. Voting to minimize risk for loved ones is normal. Just stop trying to brow beat middle eastern people into it when their brothers are being slaughtered in a horrific manner for everyone to see

PhoenixAKG gets a few sharp jabs in...

How do you think Palestinians feel....y'know the ones being GENOCIDED RIGHT NOW, which is 70% funded. You can't talk about a hypothetical in relations to what people are facing in the here and now use that as a justification for your position. What is this audacity?

Why is it okay for some groups to do whatever it takes to survive but Palestinians are told 'tough luck

Cunty, having absolutely nothing of any worth to respond with whatsoever, so resorts to copy-pasta Trans fan-fiction...

Trans people are being genocided right now in red states. It will be every state if Trump wins.

Dubbedinenglish gives Cunty a kick in the nuts too...

Why is it okay for some groups to do whatever it takes to survive but Palestinians are told 'tough luck'

You know the answer, some groups are not important and not worth supporting....but BTW you have to vote for your killers, because it makes Dems safe.

PhoenixAKG does an IDF and launches another air strike on Cunty...

Trans people are being genocided right now in red states. It will be every state if Trump wins.

Then why are you using that to make people understand your position but Palestinians are told "well, actually" in the face of what they are facing. Why is sympathy and understanding for you, but not for them?

New guy Kerwop swings into the ring and also gives Cunty a kick in the balls...

Trans people are being genocided right now in red states. It will be every state if Trump wins.

I can't imagine you'd be making the same type of posts if Biden/Kamala were great on Palestine and genocidal towards trans people.

And then it comes to an abrupt end with poodlestrike locking the thread, clearly to save CuntyCal from continuing to get an anal pounding.

Cunty right now licking his wounds, learning never to post or enter a thread without the Trans-mafia by his side.

Well done Advance.Wars.Sgt, lori, PhoenixAKG, and Kerwop. Good on ya for fucking up that annoying, whiny little shit.

[ComeAgain]

https://www.resetera.com/threads/bernie-discusses-kamalas-position-on-gaza-and-madison-square-garden-rally.1022652/page-2#post-130855773

I mean let's say in the case of trans people in the US....if Trump wins, it means full scale genocide country wide. I want my wife and friends and I to not be criminalized. When life is on the line, people will do what they need to survive off instinct.

Say what you mean. It'll make things better for YOU. Not for Palestinians. Things aren't gonna get better for them. You can admit that. Voting to minimize risk for loved ones is normal. Just stop trying to brow beat middle eastern people into it when their brothers are being slaughtered in a horrific manner for everyone to see.

Why are they worried about what happens overseas first before what happens IN THE COUNTRY KAMALA IS RUNNING FOR PRESIDENT?

[Nintex]

https://www.resetera.com/threads/bernie-discusses-kamalas-position-on-gaza-and-madison-square-garden-rally.1022652/page-2#post-130857108

aaaaand locked!

Bernie is such a weakling 

Socialist revolution.. working people.. we need to stop the wars.. unfair primary donate now to support me ruff ruff ruff  

Bernard Sanders, lose your dignity and campaign for the corporate stooge or else  

I will throw all my ideals in the trash yall just have to agree to disagree with the yas queen 

[Boredfrom]

NGL, after these recent string of threads (this one included), I would not blame a single Palestinian, Arab, or ME user for abandoning this forum wholesale.

Do it!

[Vertigo]

So the $400 million figure ERA so strongly railed against because it came from Colin Moriarty may in fact be plausible after all?

How's Crossing Eden? I remember him being the loudest pushing back against the $400 million figure.

Hilariously that absolute wanker has avoided both Firewalk threads for some reason. He is hiding out in the Veilguard thread.

It couldn't be because he was as usual 100% wrong. 



It is cute how he speaks with so much authority on these subjects though.

[PogiJones]

Hello everyone. This thread will be temporarily locked so everyone, and we mean everyone, can read this.

Gender inclusivity means helping all genders feel included. It's not only about avoiding offending others; it's about creating a welcoming space for all genders.

And to this end, we have requested people use more gender-inclusive language, such as referring to people with "folks" instead of "guys", "bros" and "lads. This is something that we will continue to insist on. We are not interested in dictionary definitions.

Henceforth we will be harsher in moderating neglect to be gender-inclusive. Frankly, we don't believe this to be a huge ask at all.

- meatbag, MarcelRguez, Tangerine_Cookie, BassForever, IsidStormDragon, Zellia, Phendrift, karmitt, KilgoreWolfe, Dardan Sandiego

Hey everyone,

We’ve been contacted privately by a few people, so we want to clarify something on our end. We specified in a previous staff post that usage of gendered language will be moderated more harshly going forward. This made a few people understandably nervous. To expand on that - regular usage here and there will remain capped at feedback, just as it always has been. We don’t assume malicious intent, and acknowledge that gendered terms have become ingrained in language to a degree that people might sometimes use them subconsciously. What will receive harsher action is ignoring feedback and belaboring the point through the inappropriate venues. We apologize for giving you the wrong impression.

On the subject of feedback: it has always been that and nothing more - feedback. It is neither a warning nor an indictment. As long as people take it constructively and we see a concerted effort being made to improve, it does not ever have to go past feedback. As mentioned, it is not a judgment of character. We did however ban a few members prior to this staff post. This is because almost all of those members had prior feedback for gendered language or similar dismissal of inclusionary initiatives, and then challenged site values after a staff post. Some of those posts also contained common misogynistic dogwhistles. But similar to the clarification on feedback, let us just take this chance to remind that “duration pending” simply means we have not decided on a ban duration yet. It does not necessarily mean that all of those bans will result in hefty durations. Being transparent, we have been dealing with a deluge of reports from this thread, and simply need more time to discuss.

Switching to the broader topic of gendered language, we really don’t think we’re asking for much here. It’s true that a lot of people, even many women or LGBT folk, perceive a term like “guys” to be gender-neutral. But many others do not, and we have had community members reach out to us and tell us that it makes them feel out of place. Gender-neutral does not always mean gender-inclusive. Even if these people who take issue are hypothetically in the minority, we are always going to defer to those made to feel uncomfortable when the ask is so small. One of Fami’s core tenets is the establishment of a community where everyone feels respected and welcomed.

A recurring complaint about the speculation megathreads is that they have become increasingly impenetrable and foster growing undercurrents counter to Fami’s values. Frankly, this whole issue with gendered language speaks to something bigger. We may be a Nintendo forum, but our community pillars of warmth, respect and inclusivity are always going to take priority over the “right” to discuss Switch 2 news. More than just moderating gendered language, this is emblematic to us of an attitude that values hype and scoops above empathy for others, which was not and will never be what Fami stands for. (As a quick tangent, this also means that no, political discussion is not banned from this thread, despite what a few people may be trying to peddle.)

The thread will remain locked for now, so that everyone has a chance to read this. We deem this far more important than having a place to hype about Switch 2 right now.

- Lord Azrael, meatbag, Phendrift, Zellia, KilgoreWolfe, MarcelRguez, OctoSplattack, Dardan Sandiego, Tangerine_Cookie, IsisStormDragon, Dragoncaine

NO SWITCH 2 HYPE FOR YOU IF YOU AREN'T GENDER INCLUSIVE 

"Feedback is neither a warning nor an indictment"
2 lines later:
"We did however ban a few members prior to this staff post. This is because almost all of those members had prior feedback"

Not a warning, but banned for having previous "feedback"

[Nintex]

I told yall this thing cost way more than $200 million.

[Gamegirl Nostalgia]

Because.. because.. Genocide!

It's totally not them wanting to feel superior over their peers. Not at all. 

[Boredfrom]

https://www.resetera.com/threads/bernie-discusses-kamalas-position-on-gaza-and-madison-square-garden-rally.1022652/page-2#post-130855773

I mean let's say in the case of trans people in the US....if Trump wins, it means full scale genocide country wide. I want my wife and friends and I to not be criminalized. When life is on the line, people will do what they need to survive off instinct.

Say what you mean. It'll make things better for YOU. Not for Palestinians. Things aren't gonna get better for them. You can admit that. Voting to minimize risk for loved ones is normal. Just stop trying to brow beat middle eastern people into it when their brothers are being slaughtered in a horrific manner for everyone to see.

Why are they worried about what happens overseas first before what happens IN THE COUNTRY KAMALA IS RUNNING FOR 

Because, as much they like to bitch about it, most of them will not be affected by Trump getting elected. 

Not saying this to dismiss Trump  incompetence and cancer, but because most of them are privileged assholes that don’t really get affected either way.

And the people that could get affected by Trump winning, like BDumbs, get bitchslapped to submission.

[Uncle]

fuckin...

WE ALREADY HAD TRUMP AS PRESIDENT ONCE

YOU SAID HE WOULD KILL ALL TRANS PEOPLE BACK THEN AND HE DIDN'T

WHY WOULD YOU THINK THIS TIME WOULD BE ANY DIFFERENT

[Boredfrom]

People usually don’t want to get cancer a second time…

[ComeAgain]

For crying out loud, Bernie doesn’t agree with her stance on Gaza and STILL understands the importance to keep Trump out of the White House. These selfish, privileged terrorist supporting fuckers.

[Boredfrom]

This is the TLDR (from Twitter - not the banned source)

I think you got the wrong point that I'm trying to portray here.
That's from Colin - a banned source, that's not real information.

The TLDR is accurate, but it's the TLDR of wild misinformation from a chud that we shouldn't pay any attention to. He was the start of the $400M rumors.

Colin Moriarty was wrong even in the stuff he was right. Don’t trust him but me, random Resetera wokie.

[Boredfrom]

Ok, y'all need to read that this is from a bad source. Do not take anything from that TLDR as truth.

 

Pussy.

[Besticus Maximus]

fuckin...

WE ALREADY HAD TRUMP AS PRESIDENT ONCE

YOU SAID HE WOULD KILL ALL TRANS PEOPLE BACK THEN AND HE DIDN'T

WHY WOULD YOU THINK THIS TIME WOULD BE ANY DIFFERENT

Back in 2016 half of them were doing meme magic with Nintex on 4chan

[PogiJones]

Hello everyone. This thread will be temporarily locked so everyone, and we mean everyone, can read this.

Gender inclusivity means helping all genders feel included. It's not only about avoiding offending others; it's about creating a welcoming space for all genders.

And to this end, we have requested people use more gender-inclusive language, such as referring to people with "folks" instead of "guys", "bros" and "lads. This is something that we will continue to insist on. We are not interested in dictionary definitions.

Henceforth we will be harsher in moderating neglect to be gender-inclusive. Frankly, we don't believe this to be a huge ask at all.

- meatbag, MarcelRguez, Tangerine_Cookie, BassForever, IsidStormDragon, Zellia, Phendrift, karmitt, KilgoreWolfe, Dardan Sandiego

Hey everyone,

We’ve been contacted privately by a few people, so we want to clarify something on our end. We specified in a previous staff post that usage of gendered language will be moderated more harshly going forward. This made a few people understandably nervous. To expand on that - regular usage here and there will remain capped at feedback, just as it always has been. We don’t assume malicious intent, and acknowledge that gendered terms have become ingrained in language to a degree that people might sometimes use them subconsciously. What will receive harsher action is ignoring feedback and belaboring the point through the inappropriate venues. We apologize for giving you the wrong impression.

On the subject of feedback: it has always been that and nothing more - feedback. It is neither a warning nor an indictment. As long as people take it constructively and we see a concerted effort being made to improve, it does not ever have to go past feedback. As mentioned, it is not a judgment of character. We did however ban a few members prior to this staff post. This is because almost all of those members had prior feedback for gendered language or similar dismissal of inclusionary initiatives, and then challenged site values after a staff post. Some of those posts also contained common misogynistic dogwhistles. But similar to the clarification on feedback, let us just take this chance to remind that “duration pending” simply means we have not decided on a ban duration yet. It does not necessarily mean that all of those bans will result in hefty durations. Being transparent, we have been dealing with a deluge of reports from this thread, and simply need more time to discuss.

Switching to the broader topic of gendered language, we really don’t think we’re asking for much here. It’s true that a lot of people, even many women or LGBT folk, perceive a term like “guys” to be gender-neutral. But many others do not, and we have had community members reach out to us and tell us that it makes them feel out of place. Gender-neutral does not always mean gender-inclusive. Even if these people who take issue are hypothetically in the minority, we are always going to defer to those made to feel uncomfortable when the ask is so small. One of Fami’s core tenets is the establishment of a community where everyone feels respected and welcomed.

A recurring complaint about the speculation megathreads is that they have become increasingly impenetrable and foster growing undercurrents counter to Fami’s values. Frankly, this whole issue with gendered language speaks to something bigger. We may be a Nintendo forum, but our community pillars of warmth, respect and inclusivity are always going to take priority over the “right” to discuss Switch 2 news. More than just moderating gendered language, this is emblematic to us of an attitude that values hype and scoops above empathy for others, which was not and will never be what Fami stands for. (As a quick tangent, this also means that no, political discussion is not banned from this thread, despite what a few people may be trying to peddle.)

The thread will remain locked for now, so that everyone has a chance to read this. We deem this far more important than having a place to hype about Switch 2 right now.

- Lord Azrael, meatbag, Phendrift, Zellia, KilgoreWolfe, MarcelRguez, OctoSplattack, Dardan Sandiego, Tangerine_Cookie, IsisStormDragon, Dragoncaine

NO SWITCH 2 HYPE FOR YOU IF YOU AREN'T GENDER INCLUSIVE 

"Feedback is neither a warning nor an indictment"
2 lines later:
"We did however ban a few members prior to this staff post. This is because almost all of those members had prior feedback"

Not a warning, but banned for having previous "feedback"

TL;DR: "Almost all of our members are, in fact, dudes, but a lot wish they weren't, so they are VERY SENSITIVE to the term 'guys' even though it's a usually a gender-neutral term, because deep down they know the gendered version applies to them, so DON'T SAY IT!"

[ComeAgain]

We got Trump legitimately joking about Nazi shit and some in here want to crack jokes? Really?

[BIONIC]

https://www.resetera.com/threads/sonics-vague-past.1022661/

Having played Shadow Generations, all these ways they're deepening the lore is interesting. But there's one thing that we don't know.

Admist all of the Robotnik family drama and Ultimate Lifeform lore. We barely know anything about Sonic's past. (The protagonist)

All we know is that he was born on Christmas Island and left his home to pursue adventures, but we don't know anything about his past. Did he have a tragic past? Who knows? Sega won't let any of the Sonic characters have relatives of any kind (aside from Cream and her mother of course)

If you wait long enough at the final boss of Sonic Adventure 2, Shadow will say "I think I know who the ultimate lifeform is. It might be you!"

But does Sonic connect to that? Seems like while Shadow got all his talent programmed into him, Sonic was just a natural.

Should it be elaborated on or is it better left a mystery?

[D3RANG3D]

[Besticus Maximus]

We barely know anything about Sonic's past. (The protagonist)

Does he think we don't know that sonic is the main character of sonic or something