Journal of Other Forum Analysis (Volume II, Issue 2)

[benji]

Do you? 

I don’t think you need to born with innate talent to create art. I don’t think that using AI excludes something from being art. I don’t think both ideas exclude one or another. We can agree with that.   

I have an issue with the idea of being an equalizer or democratizing art, mind you. I would admit that there is a lot of AI made stuff that is not slop or have effort put into it. But when people say “democratizing” is generally tech bro talk to justify making shit.

I already said my part. That Era's elitism is anger at the idea that the unwashed masses who haven't "done the time" are allowed to make art too. And this is just an elitist gatekeeper argument from people who have self-appointed themselves to a role they don't deserve. Everything you're saying here is, as usual, a complete non-sequitur that doesn't respond to what I said.

You're "or effort" addendum, suggesting that there's some distinction about the first class doing "effort" is just as easily dismissed because NONE of these people produce the tools they use for their art. They don't make Photoshop, they don't make the paper or pencils or paints, they haven't crafted any of the techniques or theories they use. I can dismiss them as not having "done the time" just as easily. Meanwhile, the techbros actually are creating the tools and supplying the capital for their own efforts. They've done far more "effort" than Nepenthe ever has in her entire life.

[Jansen]

https://www.resetera.com/threads/i-guess-even-fortnite-is-doing-more-bikini-type-skins-now.1577221/page-5#post-157929184

I just like looking at attractive characters while I play. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

Get banned motherfucker

[Boredfrom]

You are confusing tool with the artist.  

It requires effort to use a tool efficiently, whatever is pencils, photoshop or even AI. I don’t doubt people put a lot of effort in creating this models and is stupid to dismiss them as ERA does. But they don’t make the artist. Not saying this to put down people using it. I respect Uncle genuine passion for it, dunno if I will call him an artist but I see the creative spark on him. I believe AI can be a good tool.

I don’t give a shit about Nepenthe and my snark was not a defense, but is clear she put some effort at one point of her life to learn how to draw. Just like the Tech Bro put effort in creating successful business and managing talent. And they are all currently cunts of the highest degree.

Everything you're saying here is, as usual, a complete non-sequitur that doesn't respond to what I said.

Dude, I answered you before you added the other stuff.

[Besticus Maximus]

I love me some George Lucas, for lots of reasons. First, look at his physical decline from physical graffiti onwards! by the time you get to the phantom menace documentary he looks like a true crime house wife. But the most interesting thing about George by far is Joseph Campbell was his teacher.

[Jansen]

https://www.resetera.com/threads/you-are-playing-it-the-wrong-way-games-were-players-are-forced-into-a-mechanic.1577506/

Every game that planet smasher plays

[Jansen]

I'm asking here because I feel like making this question it's own thread would just attract bad actors, since video game companies seem to believe women from between June to August shed their skins like Lizard and wear nothing but bikinis, women of the thread, what clothing would you love to see for women characters in these summer packs or summer skins that AREN'T bikinis?

https://www.resetera.com/threads/why-women-criticise-sexualised-character-designs-ot3-make-her-look-more-corpulent-more-stuffed-where-the-eyes-cant-escape.275780/page-547#post-157922140

[benji]

I get it, to him Marvel’s Phase 1 is the normalization of Super Heroes in a cultural sense, rather than making a universe.  Is unnecessary at this point by his logic.

I’m more surprised how many people want Origin stories when we have 10 years of people bitching about Cape Shit Origin Films.

Gunn's right and he's operating from the same framework as Snyder, that these characters are known to us and so don't need it. Which they don't. All these "fans" are nuts and think it has to be done because the MCU did it but the MCU did it to prove the movies were financially viable. If those had flopped the Avengers never would have teamed up.

The Snyderverse had a single origin story that was also the activating moment for everything, Superman showing up. Wonder Woman's film is an origin story only because there was no other story they could tell about her, it was established she was hiding. You don't have to explain why she's hiding in the DCU because she doesn't have to be. She literally never did in anything except the Snyderverse. So why is this a requirement of her in the DCU? Just because she wasn't in Superman? Like every DC comics story not involving Superman fails when you ask "why didn't Superman, or one of the many other god-like characters, just show up?"

Gunn is doing the same exact thing that Snyder, he's outright said this, there's some EVENT that's going to happen to unify the universe's disparate parts into a cohesive whole. All he's said is that it won't be Darkseid. The Peacemaker series already did this by putting a whole bunch of threads into motion, Lanterns is clearly going to do the same. It's pretty simple, and very comic, plotting. But a lot of these comic film fans are obsessed with "YOU GOTTA INTRODUCE EVERYTHING WITH THE CHARACTERS" and no, you don't. The MCU didn't. Not a single part of Cosmic Marvel was introduced this way, GOTG (from Gunn coincidentally) established there's a massive universe full of stuff out there that all landed back in the Avengers lap before the Avengers ever left the planet. And they tied it together with a single bad CGI stinger and one line from Josh Brolin. None of the Avengers first two films really have anything to do with the side-films anyway. Thanos, the Infinity Gems, etc. nothing is established about them before Infinity War and none of the previous plotlines in the films have any relevance to any of that. But they're already established by the time the plot gets to  hem.

As bad as Superman was as just a movie, I much prefer Gunn (and Snyder) choosing to enter a universe that already exists. It's recognizing that you can write for multiple audiences over the autistic canon fans who think EVERYTHING IS A HINT TOWARDS SOMETHING IT MUST BE best personified in MovieBob who guaranteed a Wolverine v. Red Hulk film for 2024 as a setup for Avengers v. X-Men as the end of this MCU Phase because he's one of these simpletons who think every choice in the world is a clue towards a secret plan. These people have taken over everything related to superhero comics and it's all Geoff Johns fault.

[HaughtyFrank]

Yeah that other thread is a doozy.
Without calling anyone out directly, people are bringing half baked excuses that have been discussed and debunked years ago.

https://www.resetera.com/threads/why-women-criticise-sexualised-character-designs-ot3-make-her-look-more-corpulent-more-stuffed-where-the-eyes-cant-escape.275780/post-157929301

"I don't think bikini's are a big deal"

"DON'T YOU KNOW THAT THIS HAS BEEN DEBUNKED YEARS AGO?"

[Vertigo]

I'm asking here because I feel like making this question it's own thread would just attract bad actors, since video game companies seem to believe women from between June to August shed their skins like Lizard and wear nothing but bikinis, women of the thread, what clothing would you love to see for women characters in these summer packs or summer skins that AREN'T bikinis?

https://www.resetera.com/threads/why-women-criticise-sexualised-character-designs-ot3-make-her-look-more-corpulent-more-stuffed-where-the-eyes-cant-escape.275780/page-547#post-157922140

Shut in weirdos with thumbs for heads, greasy hair and hairy backs hate bikinis who knew.

The Fortnite skins are so unsexy, its just characters in simple bikinis. And its male and female characters in swimwear. 

But these guys see 'gooners' everywhere because they themselves are gooners, people like Echos continually  talk about their strange 'WLW' scenarios which are in no way them writing gooning tales.

The fact many in that thread are larping at being women makes the jokes even more hilarious.

[TylenolJones]

User banned (1 week): Thread derail & antagonizing another user

https://www.resetera.com/threads/official-concept-art-for-%E2%80%98avengers-doomsday%E2%80%99-enter-at-your-own-peril.1574980/page-6#post-157807717

I am curious why they don't add history of histories to the ban message. 

If the mods really want Zeo to learn, ban him for two months so he can't make the Spider Man and Latterns OTs that he signed up for.

[BIONIC]

I completely understand being against AI but I don't really understand where it's inconceivable for them that someone could see opportunities in it.

I think is funny because it comes from someone whose push in technological advancement, while positive for cinema, became a crutch to make slop (artistic driven slop) in his final works at SW.

I think is funny because it comes from someone whose push in technological advancement, while positive for cinema, became a crutch to make slop (artistic driven slop) in his final works at SW.

But this is the very attack they're not allowed to use. If the point of fighting AI is to protect artists, their "property" and their intent from capital and/or the masses, then you can't level any criticism at Lucas for pursuing his personal vision for his art.

I like how many hate Kojima because he dislikes the all digital future but experiments with AI. Like both things are somehow contradictory?

I think is funny because it comes from someone whose push in technological advancement, while positive for cinema, became a crutch to make slop (artistic driven slop) in his final works at SW.

> "CGI is the future, you have to accept it"

> proceeds to make Jedi Rocks

At least people can (mostly) discuss the benefits and problems with using CGI. Maybe the big problem is that AI still doesn’t have a “Jurassic Park’s T Rex” moment.

At least people can (mostly) discuss the benefits and problems with using CGI. Maybe the big problem is that AI still doesn’t have a “Jurassic Park’s T Rex” moment.

ChatGPT itself is already the "jurassic park's t-rex" moment, it was the top app on all app stores since it was first offered, I just checked on my phone and it's STILL #1

billions of people voluntarily downloading it, they wouldn't choose to download it if they didn't find it useful

I would also say that the extent that AI is doing coding these days is more than enough too, if you've ever programmed anything and tried a real coding AI it's 100% magic

it's not really possible to wow people again in a movie magic sense because AI used competently in film will just be as good as our best CGI already is, it's an elevation in productivity and mass accessibility rather than a jump from bad-looking puppets to amazing CGI

 

My man, you could have stopped with “ChatGPT” and I would have seen your point. ChatGPT is big and people can argue that is a paradigm change. I can see it.

Anyway, crazy frog:

it's an elevation in productivity and mass accessibility rather than a jump from bad-looking puppets to amazing CGI

I mean, Jurassic Park used both CGI and practical effects.

Kind of classist that they only care about white collar jobs being automated.

Always makes me laugh how we’ve been automating away working class jobs for decades. Learn to code, get with the times luddites, wait why are you voting for extremists when they promise to bring your industry back?

Now it’s the end of civilisation when it’s happening in their fields.

They also incapable to understand this point if comments about how “miners deserve getting black lung for voting Trump” is anything to go by.

I completely understand being against AI but I don't really understand where it's inconceivable for them that someone could see opportunities in it.

They hate when other people have opportunities.

/kappa.

They hate when other people have opportunities.

A bunch of the screeds in that one AI thread were essentially this, including anti-hierarchy Nepenthe's, an immense anger at the idea that someone, somewhere, might be able to create passable art without having engaged in the proper licensing process or having been born with the innate ability.

“Or effort”.

Would you like to use your words to communicate what you're trying to say?

Do you? 

I don’t think you need to born with innate talent to create art. I don’t think that using AI excludes something from being art. I don’t think both ideas exclude one or another. We can agree with that.   

I have an issue with the idea of being an equalizer or democratizing art, mind you. I would admit that there is a lot of AI made stuff that is not slop or have effort put into it. But when people say “democratizing” is generally tech bro talk to justify making shit.

This has flop stench all over it. I’m curious to see how Ree explains this film’s failure. Will it be racism this time?

https://www.resetera.com/threads/xolo-maridueña-to-return-as-blue-beetle-in-james-gunn’s-man-of-tomorrow.1577428/#post-157922956

Honestly Blue Beetle kind of fits to Gunn's Superman. Doesn't really defeat the allegation though that Gunn treats Phase 1 as if it was Phase 5

I get it, to him Marvel’s Phase 1 is the normalization of Super Heroes in a cultural sense, rather than making a universe.  Is unnecessary at this point by his logic.

I’m more surprised how many people want Origin stories when we have 10 years of people bitching about Cape Shit Origin Films.

You are confusing tool with the artist.  

It requires effort to use a tool efficiently, whatever is pencils, photoshop or even AI. I don’t doubt people put a lot of effort in creating this models and is stupid to dismiss them as ERA does. But they don’t make the artist. Not saying this to put down people using it. I respect Uncle genuine passion for it, dunno if I will call him an artist but I see the creative spark on him. I believe AI can be a good tool.

I don’t give a shit about Nepenthe and my snark was not a defense, but is clear she put some effort at one point of her life to learn how to draw. Just like the Tech Bro put effort in creating successful business and managing talent. And they are all currently cunts of the highest degree.

Everything you're saying here is, as usual, a complete non-sequitur that doesn't respond to what I said.

Dude, I answered you before you added the other stuff.

[Boredfrom]

Pussy, there is an ignore list.

[benji]

You are confusing tool with the artist.  

It requires effort to use a tool efficiently, whatever is pencils, photoshop or even AI. I don’t doubt people put a lot of effort in creating this models and is stupid to dismiss them as ERA does. But they don’t make the artist.

The distinction is in fact entirely arbitrary. But they are demanding it be everything because it is the only thing that protects their self-imagined status which they do nothing to maintain.

I'm not confusing the tool with the artist, that should be blatantly clear that is the opposite of what I am doing and it is very distinctly what they are doing. They introduce an arbitrary distinction about a single means, while never using this at all within the hierarchy they wish to defend from encroachment by new outsiders.

Even though these disputes exist. There are very much people who don't consider Photoshop to be equally art as painting on a canvas. That digital film is not the equal of the actual analog film process. People who dispute the equality of vinyl and mp3's, let alone recorded versus live performance. To set generated art apart from all other art, and do it in a way that does not also throw out loads of other art, like CGI for example or all video games, is a monumental task that they ignore by instead simply using a personal rubric: "I respect this, therefore it is art."

It is the very essence of elitism and gatekeeping because they do it with only a citation to their own (undemonstrated) "ability" or "effort" which anyone can in fact simply dismiss just as they simply dismiss anything they don't respect. It is the inherent problem of the relativist who hollows out the standards but then attempts to protect a hierarchy with no standards but the arbitrary. It is endemic across their thinking, perhaps most starkly illustrated in their dual instance that "woman" has no meaning at all but is also a status that defines literally everything about a person and demands others adjust their own thoughts to comply with.

And yes, I do dispute Nepenthe's status as an artist*, let alone her ability to speak for "artists" and "art" as a class. Degrees are worthless. And, frankly, so is animating a single character from someone else's art in a furry fighting game. Her real claim to the status of artist is in her hilarious rhetoric like "gobs of precum", "capitalism, colonialism and white supremacy", waxing lyrically about porches and street music, lecturing others about not being serious, etc.

*further, as an extremist liberal, I always maintain not only my right but anyone's right to dispute anyone else's proclaimed status at all times, especially if it's self-proclaimed rather than demonstrated, just because it might be rude to do this at certain times does not render it verboten

[Shecky Fragbaum]

https://www.resetera.com/threads/i-guess-even-fortnite-is-doing-more-bikini-type-skins-now.1577221/page-5#post-157929184

I just like looking at attractive characters while I play. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

Get banned motherfucker

Trans flag avatar*


*

Spoiler:  (click to show)(click to hide)

I cast DEFLECT!

[TylenolJones]

Damn, looks like there's one pro ai mod at Resetera. Needs to be doxxed asap.

User Banned (2 Weeks): Hostility; History of the Same

That's not correct. I have trained good models from scratch on my GPU with no additional art / no base model.



Again, no, it would not need a pre-trained stolen art database. About 50,000 samples would do, one panel each.

I'm aware that pre-training from scratch is rare but I have literally done this with good results.

Put down your crackpipe, loser. AI will never make anything good.

I'd rather HxH end than togashi use AI , but I thankfully don't believe he's dumb enough to use it.

https://www.resetera.com/threads/hunter-x-hunters-latest-manga-chapters-may-be-hinting-at-togashi-considering-using-ai-for-the-manga.1575004/page-2#post-157799026

[Boredfrom]

Even though these disputes exist. There are very much people who don't consider Photoshop to be equally art as painting on a canvas. That digital film is not the equal of the actual analog film process. People who dispute the equality of vinyl and mp3's, let alone recorded versus live performance. To set generated art apart from all other art, and do it in a way that does not also throw out loads of other art, like CGI for example or all video games, is a monumental task that they ignore by instead simply using a personal rubric: "I respect this, therefore it is art."

Strictly speaking, they are in fact different.  

People that are not in perpetual elitist gatekeeping “me vs them” can contextualize each of them and know their advantages. This is what I (personally) wish ERA understood about AI.

I don’t really have anything else to say either in favor or against it to the rest of that post. I don’t respect Nepenthe as a person and is not like she putting any work to make her art relevant to me or the masses.

[Hap Shaughnessy]

https://www.resetera.com/threads/kash-patel-gave-his-australian-counterpart-a-3d-replica-gun-as-a-gift-it-was-destroyed-within-months.1577524/

[HaughtyFrank]

Publishers don't think people like ogling men, despite that not being true. It may also tie in that they don't know how present men, since they can't lean on boobs and butts the same way.

https://www.resetera.com/threads/why-women-criticise-sexualised-character-designs-ot3-make-her-look-more-corpulent-more-stuffed-where-the-eyes-cant-escape.275780/post-157925155

They just let you guys ogle Captain America's First Amendment and you people litterally had nervous breakdowns trying to claim it wasn't true sexualization and aimed at men

[Propagandhim]

Would you like to use your words to communicate what you're trying to say?

Do you? 
I don’t think you need to born with innate talent to create art. I don’t think that using AI excludes something from being art. I don’t think both ideas exclude one or another. We can agree with that.   
I have an issue with the idea of being an equalizer or democratizing art, mind you. I would admit that there is a lot of AI made stuff that is not slop or have effort put into it. But when people say “democratizing” is generally tech bro talk to justify making shit.

Democratizing art is not bullshit though.  Middleware like Unreal, Unity, Gamemaker have allowed people to make amazing games that people love.  Democratizing art is just allowing anyone the chance to produce something by tearing down the barrier to entry.  If you can produce something worthwhile and valuable because the barrier to entry was torn down, then the barrier was an arbitrary limit. Just like "effort" is arbitrary because the amount of effort required to produce the same result varies enormously from person to person, every artistic tool that is invented changes how much and where the effort is located, and effort can be spent as much on an idea or vision as it is the mechanical practice of bringing it to life.  Someone with exceptional hand-eye coordination or other innate artistic talent may learn to draw much faster than someone without talent, or someone who has a physical disability or aphantasia. And someone whose parents paid for art lessons or encouraged them from childhood, and gave them years of free time in their house as an adult while they watched Bluey with their discord buddies has a completely different path from someone working two jobs in an unsupportive environment. Nobody combs through everyone's background for those advantages before allowing them to call themselves an artist, we just accept that they made something.  If you can make something cool, unique and valuable with AI tools, and those tools give people with limited money, time, mobility, training, confidence, or ability a way to express ideas that other people find meaningful, that's all that matters.  Every single philosophy Nepenthe expresses is coveting something about herself, whether it be her identity or her experience or her skills.  She never ever thinks about anyone else.  Never thinks about being valuable to others.  And when you corner her, she lies about it.  "I can't think about animal welfare, I got my plate full with black liberation." When people on that forum criticize America, she specifically goes out of her way to post about how she's persecuted in America and she stands outside of that criticism. The anti-AI shit is more of that, "me me me me" shit.  She doesn't care about more people being able to participate in what she finds so valuable for herself. You are a stupid, silly bitch. Bitch, just say you only believe in things that benefit you and everything else is not a priority.   Just pretend Nepenthe is in front of me right now so me calling her a bitch right now makes sense because she can see it.  Like, you have to understand, I think she's a major bitch.  Bad AI art is bad and slop because it might be very derivative or incoherent or uninteresting or whatever, but what happens when the tools become sophisticated enough that a user can clearly describe a vision and the model produces something approaching the work of a highly skilled artist? What if the models become so large that they can vary its outputs so effectively, within the language of established artistic traditions, that it creates something genuinely unique and beautiful?  At that point, the only remaining question is whether the art itself is any good. 

But you can tell these people see art as a moral reward for being behind the gate and don't care about the art itself because there have been plenty of times where they discover something is AI art when they couldn't previously see it as such, and when told, their perception of it changes and it becomes shit.  If I did that with every porn I've seen where it describes "Sexy Latina", "Big ass" but neglects to include a hashtag about the giant fucking cock that springs out of her about 3 minutes into the video, you'd call me a bigot for cumming in the first 14 seconds and then feeling bad about it.  But I guess that's the jizz biz for you. And that's also why they love so much stupid bullshit like the mandalorian and the Snyder Cuts, Avatar, and House of Dragon shit.  House of my ass.  Have I watched any of these movies or shows?  No.  Am I qualified to tell them their taste is bad since I haven't watch them?  Of fucking course not. Can I judge them for it?  Yes because I really don't like them and they're retarded. And that is something nobody can take away from me as the natural man with inalienable rights given to him by God and I'm not paying this traffic ticket, you simply have no jurisdiction.  And that's really the big takeaway here: juristiction.  What is it?  Who has it? The juris will dictate what art is...Uh, I think fucking not.  I think not.

  Not editing or re-reading a single line of this, sorry guys.

[JoeBoy101]

I'm asking here because I feel like making this question it's own thread would just attract bad actors, since video game companies seem to believe women from between June to August shed their skins like Lizard and wear nothing but bikinis, women of the thread, what clothing would you love to see for women characters in these summer packs or summer skins that AREN'T bikinis?

https://www.resetera.com/threads/why-women-criticise-sexualised-character-designs-ot3-make-her-look-more-corpulent-more-stuffed-where-the-eyes-cant-escape.275780/page-547#post-157922140

Without calling anyone out directly, people are bringing half baked excuses that have been discussed and debunked years ago

In our own walled off thread, where disagreement is banned instantly, there is no disputing our ‘debunking’.

[Besticus Maximus]

I'd rather have a horse. A horse is at least human, for God's sake.

[benji]

What would Carol Danvers need a gun for, she could just murder people outright with her abilities.  (Frankly, so could Peter and Cap.)

[Boredfrom]

Again, not defending Nep, this is just about the idea of “effort”.

Middleware like Unreal, Unity, Gamemaker have allowed people to make amazing games that people love.

But… you still need to put effort in learning the tool.  The barrier of entry is lower, sure, but your game using a specific engine will not make it automatically good. 

Effort may be arbitrary value, but it generally it shows in quality, specially since it seems to be divide between what Corpos and the public seem to find as an acceptable quality for an AI product.

If you can make something cool, unique and valuable with AI tools, and those tools give people with limited money, time, mobility, training, confidence, or ability a way to express ideas that other people find meaningful, that's all that matters.

That is the ideal, but is not generally what we get and it doesn’t sound like neither is what most outspoken big corpos are interested on. We have assholes like the Palantir CEO just being cartoonish fascist wannabe.

[benji]

Again, not defending Nep, this is just about the idea of “effort”.

Middleware like Unreal, Unity, Gamemaker have allowed people to make amazing games that people love.

But… you still need to put effort in learning the tool.  The barrier of entry is lower, sure, but your game using a specific engine will not make it automatically good. 

Effort may be arbitrary value, but it generally it shows in quality, specially since it seems to be divide between what Corpos and the public seem to find as an acceptable quality for an AI product.

But the same is true for AI, so what's the distinction supposed to be? Why is AI not allowed to make art but Unreal is when it literally streamlines nearly everything away and allows any untrained moron to fire it up and just place assets?

[HaughtyFrank]

What would Carol Danvers need a gun for

[Besticus Maximus]

https://www.resetera.com/threads/i-guess-even-fortnite-is-doing-more-bikini-type-skins-now.1577221/page-5#post-157929184

I just like looking at attractive characters while I play. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

Get banned motherfucker

Trans flag avatar*


*

Spoiler:  (click to show)(click to hide)

I cast DEFLECT!

Trolling, junior account, history of histories, bad person plz forget

[Propagandhim]

Again, not defending Nep, this is just about the idea of “effort”.

Middleware like Unreal, Unity, Gamemaker have allowed people to make amazing games that people love.

But… you still need to put effort in learning the tool.  The barrier of entry is lower, sure, but your game using a specific engine will not make it automatically good. 

Effort may be arbitrary value, but it generally it shows in quality, specially since it seems to be divide between what Corpos and the public seem to find as an acceptable quality for an AI product.

When I say AI art, I mean something that isn't push button->get output. I mean a production that requires some aspect of human insight in the loop. I think novel and unique art can't be made by pushing a button because then it wouldn't be novel or interesting to anyone.  It will sort itself out on its own in the same way that we don't have to worry about all the slop garbage on Steam because the good stuff tends to resonate with people and gain visibility.

[benji]

To be fair, she willingly joined the imperialist Air Force and has never worked to abolish it so she might gun down people just to sate her bloodthirst for brown bodies. But still, she'd need to have ammo and to reload, unlike her energy blasts that could just vaporize them like Gaza. No, this feels like something that has been discussed and debunked years ago.

[Boredfrom]

Again, not defending Nep, this is just about the idea of “effort”.

Middleware like Unreal, Unity, Gamemaker have allowed people to make amazing games that people love.

But… you still need to put effort in learning the tool.  The barrier of entry is lower, sure, but your game using a specific engine will not make it automatically good. 

Effort may be arbitrary value, but it generally it shows in quality, specially since it seems to be divide between what Corpos and the public seem to find as an acceptable quality for an AI product.

When I say AI art, I mean something that isn't push button->get output. I mean a production that requires some aspect of human insight in the loop. I think novel and unique art can't be made by pushing a button because then it wouldn't be novel or interesting to anyone.  It will sort itself out on its own in the same way that we don't have to worry about all the slop garbage on Steam because the good stuff tends to resonate with people and gain visibility.

That’s the key problem with the perception of AI in general.  

I also think it will be sorted out, but I don’t think in the way either Pro or Antis want.

[Uncle]

I also noticed that progressives use diversity to, pardon my expression, also promote more diversity hires. 

I said before that diversity isn’t bad, and I still strongly believe this… but people that care so much about it are often hacks (either whites or PoC). They cannot distinguish between inclusion and tokenism, even if they are PoC.

I was recently reminded about how Mass Effect Andromeda had a NPC that basically went "Hi, I'm Angela but on earth I used to be Steve because I'm trans" (dramatized) and it really showed how no one there actually had interest or skill to write a trans character. The sole goal was to just have one. They quickly patched it after everyone called out how absurd it was.

a bunch of games did that all at once, Baldur's Gate Siege of Dragonspear did it too (mid-quel that the remaster team made after they remastered the original games and wanted to include modern day commentary)

random dwarf NPC that was like "hello, I used to be a male but I got a wizard to make me a girl and I feel so much happier"

this NPC was slightly changed in a patch, to this day wikipedia frames this as a response to the transphobia by hiding the fact that the character was trans:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Baldur's_Gate:_Siege_of_Dragonspear#Backlash_from_Gamergate_and_review_bombing

On an April 2016 post discussing both technical and content issues, Beamdog revealed that they will remove the Gamergate joke and expand Mizhena's story.[20] To this effect, the 2.5 patch added a new quest, given by Mizhena; the dialogue tree where Mizhena indicate being a trans woman is now after the player has completed the quest, rather than the first time the player meets Mizhena.[21] Paul Tumburro of CraveOnline termed this as "spineless and disappointing" stating that Beamdog's founder Trent Oster refused to acknowledge the transphobic criticisms leveled at the game.[22]

except you dig slightly deeper and you find the real story on the talk page:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Baldur%27s_Gate:_Siege_of_Dragonspear#Missing_Context

The gist is that the character Mizhena deadnames herself immediately -- in other words, she reveals the fact that she is trans and readily shares her former, "dead" name, something that a real trans person would likely never do so casually. This helps to explain why Beamdog chose the response they did, as described in the article: only after Mizhena trusts the players does she reveal her past. If Beamdog was pandering to transphobia as is implied, they would not have doubled-down on making this character a better, more accurate representation of trans people.

but you aren't allowed to cite forum threads:

A reliable source will be needed. The forum post is not usable as it is user generated

a thread which beamdog deleted, because it was evidence that there had been backlash against the character from actual trans people:

https://web.archive.org/web/20190120063255/https://forums.beamdog.com/discussion/50420/my-thoughts-on-mizhena-as-a-transgender-person-myself

Hey there Beamdog forums. I just wanted to give my feelings on the inclusion of this character from the perspective of someone who is trans.

For background: I was born 1991, as a biological male. As early as I can remember, I have wished that I was born female. When I was in kindergarten, my teacher asked me what I wanted to be when I grew up and I said a girl. My parents first recognized (but not accepted) my feelings when I was four and thought I would grow out of it. I thought I would to, but I didn't. I'm 24 now, I've been on hormone replacement therapy for a while and am trying to make the best of my situation and live my life in the way I feel is most comfortable for me.

Baldur's Gate is one of my favorite games of all time. I first got the game when I was 10 and loved it. I remember deliberately giving my character the belt of femininity/masculinity because back then I didn't know it was possible to 'change' your gender, I had never heard the term transgender and didn't even know there were other people in the world who had feelings like me. It gave me a deep sense of personal investment in a game series that was already incredible without it, and I've replayed the games more times than I can count.

I was really excited to hear about Siege of Dragonspear because playing new content in one of my favorite old games is like a dream come true. I won't get into my feelings about the expansion, I just want to talk about the inclusion of Mizhena.

Mizhena is a cheap, lazy, 'safe' character who is included for the sole purpose of having a transgender character in the game.

Let me just say that as a transsexual I would never, EVER introduce myself to someone by telling them that I am a transsexual. Being trans is not fun. People are mean and cruel to you. You are mean and cruel to yourself. I do not do the things I do because I want to be a transsexual, I do them because I want to be a woman. I want to blend in as a girl as a best I can, the last thing I would EVER do is draw attention to myself for being trans (except for this thread of course, har har). Even when people are trying to be nice it feels awful. I have had people come up to me, tell me they liked my clothes or hair, converse with me, make me feel good, and then end the conversation with "You know, I think people like you are so brave" and that sentence just makes me want to die. I just want to be seen as a normal person. Of course, usually when you get attention for being trans, it is not positive at all, which brings me to my next point:

The way your character converses with Mizhena is almost totally different than it is for everyone else in the game. You can be rude, mean, funny, or just throw a witty retort or remark to almost everyone in the game over the smallest thing, but even an evil blackguard who murders everyone in sight can only say "What a lovely name, tell me more", "How interesting" or "Good day to you". I understand that it would be politically incorrect to be rude or insult a transgender character for being trans, but to me all that does is highlight that being trans is different. The trans character is not on the same level as every other character, who can 'take' abuse from you. The trans character has to be protected from this because they're different. The way the trans character is implemented doesn't make me feel like "I'm just like everyone else" as I imagine the writer intended, it just makes me feel more like a freak or novelty. It's unrealistic.

The inclusion of Mizhena is utterly pointless. Having a transgender character just to have one brings nothing to the story, all it does is take you back to the 'real world', which to me ruins the immersion I'm supposed to feel playing a fantasy game. I would rather there be no trans character than a pointless one.

I also think that this was a massively missed opportunity for something special. There have been transgender people in many cultures across all of human history, and there are certainly stories to tell here. Why couldn't it have been done in a fun or interesting way that actually fits the game? Maybe there could have been a transgender npc who asks you to find the belt of masculinity/femininity for them. Then if you asked them why, they would actually have some context to explain that they're trans. Or why not make the trans character a full on party member? You could have Jaheira call Mizhena out on being an abomination against nature (choice words from my own mother by the way), and maybe over your travels the two characters bond and Jaheira learns to accept and appreciate Mizhena for being who they are. And if you actually made Mizhena fun, witty, and interesting, and had good dialogue and interactions along the way, maybe somebody in real life would actually have better feelings towards transgender people after enjoying that quest line. Wouldn't that be something.

Harshness aside, I do want to say that other than this I think the expansion is fun and I applaud Beamdog for working hard on it, especially for getting the old voice actors back. I'm still looking forward to what you guys release in the future.

other trans people agree:

I'm also trans and I'm re-posting some things because I need to sleep.

As a writer and a trans person, it was slightly weird to have the character mention her sex background right away. Many people don't like the inclusion of a trans person, but many wouldn't mind if the inclusion were better done.

So... of the 4 (5?) trans people who I've seen publicly reacted to this character today, none has had a positive outlook. And 2 or 3 of us feels unsafe at the attention.

I don't like how they put it in like a statement that Beamdog support the trans community. This is d&d, trans wouldn't really exist as there is magic and belts that can change you.

I agree there should of been a side quest to give Mizhena a belt or some other d&d way to help, Otherwise it seems like Beamdog is trying to point score with a community than making a game